Moving to the 964 from a Supra TT?

MegatronUK · Mar 9, 2006

Hi folks, I'm a potential new owner as I'm looking to sell my 1995 Toyota Supra twin turbo in 6 months or so, after nearly three years of ownership. I've been looking around at all the usual other cars:

M3 - god awful looking repmobile with a stonking engine
350Z - doesn't really 'excite'
300ZX - way too old and unreliable
Skyline - apart from the 4wd, too similar to the Supra (which is the better car, imho) and has a terrible interior
NSX - Very pretty looking piece of engineering, not really designed for everyday use though is it?
Impreza - Terrible fuel consumption, common as muck, too 'boy racer' styled
Lancer - See above

... but the only two things that I keep coming back to are:

1. Another Supra - possibly a late 97+ model, which has the VVTi equipped twin turbo lump (330bhp over my 320bhp)

2. Porsche 911... everyone's boyhood dream

I'd be looking at a budget of around 18-19k, which at first glance appears as if it should be enough to pick up a very tidy 964 (incidentally can anyone tell me the going rates for the 965, I can't find any examples anywhere...)... an absolutely gorgeous looking piece of machinery - the only only thing close I was considering was the NSX... but it's just not practical enough.

Anyway, what I really want to know is not all of the buyers guide info, or things to look out for - I've plenty of time to pick up that, no, what I'm really looking for at the moment is whether or not I will be dissapointed going from a 320bhp, 3.0 6 cylinder, front engined, rear wheel drive.... to the 250bhp, rear engine 3.6 of the Porsche?

On paper there's not much in it: 5.3 and 168mph of the Supra compared to 5.7 and 162mph (or so) of the 964 - but I know from experience that it's the mid-range drive and response that I enjoy the most from the Supra. What is the 964 like in comparison? Another important consideration to make is how easy they are to live with everyday - the Supra is very, very fast, but it's also an absolute pussy cat to trundle about in when you switch off and just want to do big A-to-B runs.

Any info at all would be greatly appreciated folks, as this would be a big investment for me.

Regards

-John

sbloxxy · Mar 10, 2006

In a previous life, I used to be a car saleman and got to drive lots of nice cars including the odd Supra. Ultimately, its completely down to personal choice; the 964 handles in such a completely different way to the Supra (though mastering the Porsche is part of its attraction). The 964 is much rawer, louder and more aggressive (again, I would argue thats part of its attraction) but the Supra is probably easier to live with day to day. In reality I suspect the performance difference is minimal - the 964 is flippin' quick by any standard and I can't imagine that you'd be dissapointed. You really need to test drive a 964 for yourself; make sure its a fairly lengthy drive because a Porsche's charms aren't always immediately apparent - they come to you over time (again, yet another aspect of its attraction).
In the 70s, my uncle used to run about in a crappy Hillman Imp just so he could afford to run his E-type Jaguar at the weekend; I remember him saying that every time he climbed into the E-Type, his heart would start pounding. I know what he meant now because my 964 makes me feel exactly the same way.
Well, you did'nt expect an unbiased opinion, did you?!

Guest · Mar 10, 2006

The Supra is a cracking car, hugely underated and a tough act the follow.

If you are looking at spending around £19k you should get a superb 964 or tatty LHD 993.

A beautiful silver 964 with the ninemiester supercharger has been advertised recently at £19k. That is a lot of car for the money.

If you want the fastest most challenging sports car which is practical, I'd go for the 964 C2. Doubtless the four wheel drive is comforting during the winter but it does add weight and they tend to be a little more understeery (on track anyway).

I guess it depends what you will be using the car for.

My biased opinion would be to go for a tidy C2.

I've had mine since November and still get that buzz from just seeing it sat on the drive. It has the classic 911 looks and the howl of the engine at around 5000 rpm is as good as it gets. The steering is second only to my old Elise for feedback and accuracy. The whole car feels solid and precise from the noise of the doors slamming to the feel of the switches on the dash.
On track the car comes alive. Trying to get the best out of it is more addictive than crack cocaine. On the road the Supra may have it for outright pace in slippy conditions but the 964 will feel more fun.
With your budget you afford a good car around the £16k mark (or £13k LHD) and spend a little improving it - chip, filter, suspension etc.

I have been through many cars over the years: Clio 172, M3,Caterham, Elise to name but a few but none has given me the same feeling of satisfaction as my old LHD 964.

Finances permitting, I will never sell this car. It is just too good.

MegatronUK · Mar 10, 2006

Thanks for the replies folks - it's really appreciated!

I was a little worried that I'd be looking at the low to mid range of the market, but it seems from what you're saying that I should basically be able to pick and choose the best of the bunch with the kind of budget I'm looking at. I'd much rather have an absolutely first rate older model like the 964 than an abused and tired 993.

I love the widebody style and the Turbo... but it's just not going to happen. So it's basically going to be the C4 or 2 - I'm used to powerful rwd (my track toys include a vauxhall powered mk1 Escort and a 2l turbo powered mk1 MR2 pushing around 260-270bhp), so it's not going to be a massive culture shock as coming from fwd would be.

I've never heard of the supercharger before, is it a kit that is pretty common?

Guest · Mar 10, 2006

Check out the ninemeister website: http://www.porschetuning.co.uk/html/

They give options for a standard tune to get 270-280 bhp (£730) and the supercharger option promises 330-340 bhp for a scary £4500.

Not that you'll really need more power to start with. My car is still in standard tune and is a blast to drive.
Your best bet is to find a good car and learn the unique driving characteristics first. Then throw some wedge at it to make it 'yours'.

Happy hunting - if you buy a well looked after car you really won't regret it.

MegatronUK · Mar 10, 2006

Cheers, I've had a quick look over that site now. It's probably something I would consider paying a little more for on a car, but not something I would go out and buy myself. Some of the other bits and bobs are useful - the clear indicator assemblies to replace the amber ones, for example, and the suspension tuning packages.

Do you have any links to that recent silver example you mentioned?

Finally, are there any reccomended dealers or members to look at buying cars from? The following seem to have a decent amount of cars in...
Autobahn Porsche
911Virgin
Northway
I've trawled the web quite a bit and the 964 does seem to be under-represented somewhat in the number of cars for sale - although in the process of doing that I've found two 965's so I have an idea of how much more they command (one was £23k and the other £26k)- I just can't stretch to it. More research and info hunting for exact specs, colours, options, buying guides etc. needs to be done! [8|]

sawood12 · Mar 10, 2006

ORIGINAL: kdean

If you are looking at spending around £19k you should get a superb 964 or tatty LHD 993.

Or a superb RHD high milage early 993. I know bacause I nearly bought one about 6 months ago, 165k miles, absolutely straight with a full service history and two previous owners but decided to keep the 944 on for another year...or two....or three...

But seriously even going from a 944 to a 964 is a big difference in the feel of the car (not necessarily the capabilities) so ultimately it's upto your personal feel and preference. I suspect you might miss alot of the electronic gadgetary that makes the Supra seem like something out of a Sci Fi flick - if electronic gadgetry is up there on your list of priorities that is. My advice would be to take your time and drive alot of cars and enjoy the shopping around experience. Happy hunting.

MegatronUK · Mar 10, 2006

I guess it's probably a good thing that I'm not going to be replacing the car for another 6 months then - maybe that will see prices settle a bit and make it a bit clearer as to what would be the best buy? Also a chance to put a few grand away to maybe swing my decision one way or another (gotta be a rhd car and tintop/sunroof - definitely not interested in a lhd or ragtop/targa... but other than that; 964/993/C4/C2... it's all good!)

I'll just enjoy the ride along for now! Is it worthwhile picking up any of the monthly magazines to keep an eye on things?

Guest · Mar 11, 2006

I don't know if you have tried driving a 964 yet?
What I expect you'll notice is that it is lighter than the Supra. So it feels a bit more sharp on the road (or should do if the shocks are in good condition).
You'll also notice that moving the engine from front to back means the steering is a lot lighter, with more feedback and the nose feels as if it has a lot less weight. It may feel odd at first.

I would suggest you'll also notice that it does not have ny turbos (unless you look at a turbo, obviously). So the power delivery is a lot more linear with no on/off boost characteristics.
If you really like the turbo thrust, then I don't know if you'll be so happy with a normally aspirated car. The mid range grunt is what I like, and I can't get excited about NA cars.
So to get the performance out of the 964, you will probably have to work harder.

Driving any 911 is fun though. And I would think you would find it more rewarding.
However, the interior is a little dated by modern standards. Whether that is a plus or a minus, depends on your opinion.

MegatronUK · Mar 11, 2006

Hi Stuart, no I haven't driven any examples yet; trying to do a bit of research first...

... I do have experience with mid-engined cars though; I've my mk1 MR2 and have driven my fathers mk2 MR2 on occasion. Not quite the same as the rear engine, but I understand what you mean when you talk about the front end feeling light. Yes I certainly love turbocharged cars, but the car I find most fun to drive, and get the most enjoyment out of, is the Escort - no turbocharger there; just big ol rorty carbs! [

]

I was just talking to some of the guys on the MR2/Supra forums about moving to a 911; they were a little surprised at moving from over 300bhp to 'only' 250-260 and I made the point that even though the Supra is very, very fast, as I drive it every day I can honestly put my hand on my heart and say that 99% of the time I only use maybe 60-70% of it's power. I've got the two track cars if I want to drive at that last few 90-99% of the car's ability.

Nice to hear what a 911 turbo owner has to say though!

mwadams · Mar 11, 2006

Megatron,

I would stay clear of Autobahn, I have had 2 bad experiences with them and they have been named and shamed on another forum.

Roly Baldwin at Porsche always has good reports and I purchased mine almost 6 months ago with no issues, also Shirley's Garage just down the road from Autobahn I can recommend as I had 3 cars from them.

http://www.eporsch.co.uk/0101for_sale.htm#

http://www.shirleys-garage.co.uk/

Mark

MegatronUK · Mar 11, 2006

Mark, thanks for the warning. I did also have a look on ePorsche too.

BTW, Been out this morning to a couple of dealers and had a good look around a few cars; only one 964 (a cabrio 4) and plenty of Boxsters and 996's ... the Boxster is just too dainty looking to consider (and I want a hard top)... but the 996, oh what a lovely looking car; not quite as evocative as the 964 and 993 with the raised wings and headlights, but lovely nonetheless.

Still, seeing the 964 cabrio meant I got to have a detailed look inside, and I must say that I didn't find the interior or dashboard particulary retro - certainly more modern looking than my mk1 MR2 and I actually really like the layout of the dials. It reminded me of mid 90's BMW's, with their straight forward simple switchgear (in any colour you want as long as it is black!); not exactly beautiful, but good looking in an efficient, workmanlike way [

]

mwadams · Mar 11, 2006

Megatron,

I have had 2 bad experiences with 996's and to be honest much prefer the 964 and 993. I have had both the 2.5L and 3.2 Boxster 'S' and I found them to be good cars but just not a 911...

You will find that the quirks of the 964 grow on you [

]

Mark

MegatronUK · Mar 11, 2006

The boss at work has a Boxster S.. nice looking thing, but it would be fabulous to park up in a 911 next to it [

]

A 996 is waaay too much money for me to even contemplate it. Low twenties would be absolute max (an even then, only if I probably sold the Escort or MR2 as well). Plus, it's missing a little something that the sound of the air cooled six makes. The last two air cooled models definitely seem as if they have a hardcore fan base; I've seen elsewhere on here people saying the same thing as you; that they've come back to the 993 from the 996.

Fred Hindle · Mar 11, 2006

There is a lot of argument between owners of different Porsche 911 models as which one is the best. Whilst I'm not going to fuel the argument here by saying which one is the best [

] I will say you are looking in the right direction with the 964. One tip I would give you when looking at any 911, take a knowledgable friend / mechanic with you who will look at the car without the rose tinted glasses, if they say 'Don't buy it.' then walk away.
Cheers,

Guest · Mar 11, 2006

I would have thought the twin T supra would eat the 964 for breakfast. The mid range on those suckers is so big.

I really fancy a supra TT, just for a while.

Where are you based John, we could meet up and compair notes.

If you want to match the Supra I would suggest a Turbo 964.

colinb1 · Mar 11, 2006

If you fancy a turbo here's a nice example for you

1991 911 TURBO (964) 83K, 3.3, LHD, black, grey leather, 83K mls with full history, very recent major service, immobiliser, HPI and engineering report, car in excellent condition, £18,995. Tel: 07711 086628. P0406/023

MegatronUK · Mar 12, 2006

ORIGINAL: Fred Hindle

There is a lot of argument between owners of different Porsche 911 models as which one is the best. Whilst I'm not going to fuel the argument here by saying which one is the best [] I will say you are looking in the right direction with the 964. One tip I would give you when looking at any 911, take a knowledgable friend / mechanic with you who will look at the car without the rose tinted glasses, if they say 'Don't buy it.' then walk away.
Cheers,

Hahahaha, I'll try not to stir things up any further then! [

] No problem with the unbiased opinion; my father is a mechanic with his own garage [

]

MegatronUK · Mar 12, 2006

ORIGINAL: johno

I would have thought the twin T supra would eat the 964 for breakfast. The mid range on those suckers is so big.

I really fancy a supra TT, just for a while.

Where are you based John, we could meet up and compair notes.

If you want to match the Supra I would suggest a Turbo 964.

Yep, massive mid-range pulling power... as I already said though; I'm finding I don't use anywhere near the full performance of the car, so I don't think the very slight performance difference should be an issue. They are awesome pieces of engineering - the 2JZGTE 6 cylinder is just about indestructible and for such a big car (both in terms of weight [1450-1500kg] and size) they do carry themselves very well; I can't fault them.

I live just outside of Durham, but work in Newcastle.

MegatronUK · Mar 12, 2006

ORIGINAL: colinb1

If you fancy a turbo here's a nice example for you

1991 911 TURBO (964) 83K, 3.3, LHD, black, grey leather, 83K mls with full history, very recent major service, immobiliser, HPI and engineering report, car in excellent condition, £18,995. Tel: 07711 086628. P0406/023

Awesome piece of kit. Excellent colour choice. The year is ok. Mileage about the top of what I'm looking for, but still acceptable... good history and details... price is right smack in the middle of what I want to be paying... BUT: left hander [

]

I know they're how Porsche originally designed them, but I just don't think I could put up with it - plus, the less likely an insurance company is to say "get lost" to me, the better. I'm only 27, probably 28 by the time I'm looking to buy.