New 2010 Porsche Turbo driven

[blueSL]

Worth pointing out that, at current exchange rates, the 997.2 turbo is a bargain. Mine has come out at £116k but if you go to the German web-site and spec the exact same car, it's €169k. Switch German 19% VAT for UK 15% and it comes to an eye-watering £148k. Porsche are selling their cars at a huge discount in the UK compared to what they cost in Germany or, to put it another way, Porsche have not passed on the freefall of the GBP on to UK buyers.

The message is clear though. If you don't like the 997.2 package, don't buy it.

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: Alex L

These engine strength rumours come from both Ruf and RS-Tuning engineers who are in contact with Porsche engineers on a regular basis and are some of the most knowledgeable Porsche engine guys on the planet.

I certainly don't believe this. If Porsche were working closely with these tuners I'm sure they would have some form of non-disclosure agreement that would restrict any of the companies employees or any of their sub-contractors/3rd party vendors from discussing such sensitive issues - especially if they were finding weaknesses with the Porsche engines. I certaily don't believe that Porsche employees are openly discussing the engine's weaknesses casually over a few beers in the evening either. That would be a sackable offence i'm sure - it is in the company I work for. There are plenty of pretenders out there on these forums claiming to have 'worked in F1', or know a mate who has or something similar, which is supposed to somehow add credence to the drivel they spout.

The fact these things can do repeated launch control starts where the initial shock loading of the transmission will be tens if not hundreds of times greater than the max loading of the transmission system says to me that there is nothing wrong or delicate about the PDK transmission - unlike Nissans.

The infamous GT-R ring time was carried out over a number of multiple runs involving a team of Nissan engineers who tuned the cars electronics and suspension in order to get that time (with a whole host of other under the skin mods no doubt) - so not exactly performance that is available out of the box to any GT-R customers who have the driving skills to achieve those times. When Porsche took a stock one round the track they couldn't get anywhere near that time, I know many will cry foul, but it is not in Porsches interests to stage a deliberate slow time when it can be easily exposed by an independant party, such as a magazine.

I've only ever been a passenger in a stock 996 turbo x50 and the performance of that car blew my mind - much more so than the more timid performance of a Fezza 360 - it was in a whole other league, and so much more controlable. This new car looks fantastic, certainly on my wishlist if my numbers were to ever come up, and for 99.9% of customers i'm sure the performance will be more than adequate on our knackered, potholed, congested and speed camera festooned roads.

 

[Dylan1]

absolutely spot on mark-i was in frankfurt recently,taking my daughter for a yr of study at Uni(sadly the week before the motor show) and went into the aston martin showroom as my brother asked me to check out the new rapide.
the cost of the db9.vantage and new rapide were on average 30%plus over uk prices!!same story with porsche-if you have the dosh then in the uk is a good time to buy!!

 

[tscaptain]

ORIGINAL: bobfair
so I would be concerned about the lack of a genuine dry sump in the DFI version as you can pull a lot of G's in these cars and oil starvation doesnt bear thinking about

I know I'm daft but I don't understand what the earlier posts voicing concern over the oil supply to the DFI engine are all about. This from the website

The purpose of integrated dry-sump lubrication is to guarantee a reliable oil supply while reducing engine temperatures, even in sportily driven cars.
The oil reservoir is located inside the engine, making an external tank unnecessary. Four oil pumps remove the oil from the cylinder heads directly into the oil sump. A fifth pump in the oil sump directly supplies the lubricating points in the engine.

For the engine, all of these detailed solutions mean a consistent supply of oil regardless of gravitational loads, even in the most demanding track conditions.
So are they telling Porker porkies?

 

[blueSL]

YEs, I'm sure if Porsche GB priced in the full depreciation of the GBP, their market (still the 4th largest I think) would vapourise before their eyes.

My main criterion when choosing a car is the ability to overtake safely in the distance I can see ahead to be clear and this is where the turbo reigns supreme. My 996 turbo was great and I expect the new car will be better, especially compared to my other two cars - a lardy SL55 AMG and an ageing F355 Berlinetta - both of which have given me heart stopping moments just recently. The ability for the 997.2 turbo to safely dispatch a gaggle of cars trailing an artic is the reason to buy.

Compared to that, NBR times, pi..ing contests and spreadsheets of modifications count for little. If the new DFI engine of my car does let go, Porsche will see the car has been serviced properly and unmodified and, I expect, do the Right Thing. I expect the position for a modified car would not be so clear cut.

997.1 turbo owners - especially those seduced by the fractionally better performance of the Tiptronic - need to accept the new car will likely be better, just as I have to accept that the new car will be improved upon in turn.

 

[tscaptain]

I don't think Porsche are losing out selling the car for £116k! According to this weeks Autocar (who rave about the car, incidentally) the new Turbo only costs £6k more to produce than a Boxster - so quite a decent mark up there then!

 

[Alex L]

ORIGINAL: tscaptain
the new Turbo only costs £6k more to produce than a Boxster

Well 'someone' has to pay off Porsche's debts; looks like new Turbo owners are leading the way [][][] Like a master magician they distract you with 'ooos and ahhhs' with one hand whilst they pick your pocket with the other []

I am dying to test drive one so that I can compare to my original 997.1 stock Turbo and also to my current 997.1 modified Turbo. I am sure my OPC will oblidge when they get a demo car in.

Can I just ask 997.2 Carrera owners - how often do you use launch control in everyday situations? I can't see there being that many occurances of traffic lights on 60mph roads where you are at the front of the queue... I use most of my acceleration when overtaking people and I don't ever need to change gears during the manoeuvre so having PDK wouldn't really save me any time.

 

[bobfair]

Alan

In my C2S manual it warned aginst using slick tyres and when I queried this with Porsche I was given the explanation that slicks can generate so much extra g force that oil stravation could be a problem and if it there was it would invalidate a warranty claim. The point I was making that if you are a keen track day enthusiast then a genuine dry sump is probably better which is what you get with the old GT1 engine which is still used in the GT3.

I totally accept that for the majority of Turbo owners this is a non issue and I am not suggesting for one moment that the new engine is not safe on track but if you are going to track the car a lot it may be wise to read the manual carefully if you intend using track tyres (particularly slicks) with additional grip. Of course Porsche may have carried out internal mods to the engine to make this a non issue now anyway. I trust that satisfactorily explained the point I was trying to make

 

[tscaptain]

Thanks Bob. Presumably that was a Gen 1 C2S which had a different set up with regards to oil. I remember reading that in the Gen 1 book but I think the system in the Gen 2 DFI engines (and thus the Gen 2 Turbo) solves the problem of extra sideways g's - well at least according to their own blurb![] Technically I have no idea what the difference between the "internal" dry sump on the DFI engine and the external one on the GT1 makes, if any.

Alex - I don't think you can use launch in "everyday" situations - well I don't anyway![] I think it's a party piece they put in just because they could.

 

[bobfair]

Thats right Alan I am afraid I dont have all the details of the oily bits and the changes that occured in the sump from Gen 1 to Gen 2 C2S. But however you look at it the new Turbo is a fantastic car and another step forward in terms of performance and if they have built in a better driving experience as well it really will be a great road car. I loved every mile I drove in my Gen 1 Turbo (Post DMS exhaust)

It will be interesting to see where they go next for the engines for the race cars. Isn't DFI banned from racing at present presumably to create a level playing field?

 

[blueSL]

I expect that figure of £6000 is typical Autocar sensationalist tripe, taken out of context. If the turbo is only £6000 more than a Boxster, where does that leave a "cooking" 911?

When the SL55 AMG came out, it was said the car costs Mercedes only £10,000 to make, at the margin, but sold for 8 - 9 times as much. The cost of the parts in the quantities Mercedes are already buying, the cost of the extra labour to screw it together but that doesn't mean the car can possibly be produced and sold for the price. There's the small matter of the development cost, the cost of the manufacturing plant and all the rest.

In Zuffenhausen, there are about 75 stations taking a painted body shell through to completed car, 2 - 3 people working at each, 4.5 minutes a time. Do the maths, assume an hourly pay rate and you come up with about €500. Add the same again for the engine and the body shell, does anyone think the labour content of a 911 turbo is €1500? Of course not.

In any case, the car is priced at what the market will bear, not what it costs. A rule of thumb in the cut-throat electronics industry is that a product retails for 4 - 5 times the cost of the parts and the car manufacturers will be similar. Manufacturers are in the business of adding value, where the value of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

 

[okellyt]

Just to cause mischief

Winding road - US electronic mag is claiming new 997.2 TT 0-62 in 3.1s and 0-200kmh in 10.6 for the hard top, figures on the blog are for the soft top. It also claims the biggest improvement is in handling, turn in and traction from the rears. It claims like for like weight is down as the DFI engine is lighter, other components are lighter and the PDK is significantly lighter than the tiptronic.

In terms of turn in , handling and on road performance they claim "its a whole new level from the GTR let alone Gen1 Turbo" I am paraphrasing here but its pretty much the thrust of it[]

True or not it ups the hype for the UK reviews.

 

[Dylan1]

OMG!!!

where does that put it on Alex's leaderboard[]

near the top i'll wager!!

 

[Alex L]

ORIGINAL: dyllan

OMG!!!

where does that put it on Alex's leaderboard[]

near the top i'll wager!!

It jumps one spot as 100-200kph becomes 7.5s (compared to the official 7.9s).

Still much slower than Stage II Ruf (+£11k) and Cargraphic/RS-Tuning (+£7k) though.

 

[blueSL]

THanks for the heads up on the Winding Road review, a good read and they obviously love the car.

 

[okellyt]

ORIGINAL: Alex L

ORIGINAL: dyllan

OMG!!!

where does that put it on Alex's leaderboard[]

near the top i'll wager!!

It jumps one spot as 100-200kph becomes 7.5s (compared to the official 7.9s). 

Still much slower than Stage II Ruf (+£11k) and Cargraphic/RS-Tuning (+£7k) though.

Yes but to cause further mischief its 0-100 and 0-200 kph times are around about the same as the RUF and Cargraphic. A few tenths faster to 60, a one to two tenths slower to 200.[:-]

The magazine also reckoned it was a good 3 seconds faster round the Estoril circuit than the Gen 1 TT

So no hype going on at all then[8|]

 

[Dylan1]

ORIGINAL: Alex L

ORIGINAL: dyllan

OMG!!!

where does that put it on Alex's leaderboard[]

near the top i'll wager!!

It jumps one spot as 100-200kph becomes 7.5s (compared to the official 7.9s).

Still much slower than Stage II Ruf (+£11k) and Cargraphic/RS-Tuning (+£7k) though.

i was only joking alex[]

 

[okellyt]

Dyllan

Its a public service[] - He needs this sort of information to justify the full stage 3 conversion (650hp)

 

[lowndes]

I usually keep cars for about 3 years so this autumn needed to think about replacing my 56 Gen 1 TT. I had never got anywhere near the edge of the performance envelope of the car on the road (nor that of its predecessor 996TT) and I didn't use it on the track so don't really need any of the Gen 2 upgrades. But that didn't stop me placing an order for the new car.

Someone on PH posted that anyone who sold a Gen 1 and took a £40+k hit (probably nearer £60k in my case) on a new car was a mug. That may be, but the used market needs mugs to start the ball rolling.

And although I am unlikely to need the micro second PDK change it will nevertheless be a source of enjoyment. (Indeed if I may go slightly of topic to make a point, I quite often drive my 430 F1 in auto mode because under heavy braking for a corner it can drop down the gears faster than I can with the paddles).

One of problems it seems to me is that the reviews of new performance cars tend to by focused on 0-60, ability to oversteer power slide and benchmark 'ring time. All good stuff no doubt but not necessarily that relevant for some buyers such as me. I think the only time I ever use the full performance on the road is to overtake a line of cars. So for me a more useful bench mark might be a function of the gear/length of clear road needed to overtake 6 cars doing 50mph then safely negotiate an off camber down hill bend covered in wet leaves.

What I also need to see in the Gen 2 review is that I can still get my golf clubs in the back!

Nonetheless I think the upgrades are a pretty attractive package which will make the Gen2 an even more fantastic car than the Gen 1.

 

[okellyt]

Lowndes,

What's nice about this forum is there are lots of individuals each with a different, and to them valid, view.

All to rare I am afraid nowadays, where we seem to be bombarded with advertising/journalism/media/politicians that tell us basically there is no choice and only one option is right or acceptable.

A Porsche is a luxury decision, partly based on circumstances, partly on what you like and partly on what you can afford. So there are lots of right choices, each suits the individual.

I'd love a Gen II turbo, equally I'd love to buy a second hand Gen 1, well looked after where I could run a bit of a tuning project. Having said all that I am currently very happy with the beast, who I have only just got how I want it. Can't afford a new one without using the equity in the beast so I might just leave it a while.

I do think the strong views are here because we are crossing a bit of a Rubicon - rather like the air cooled to water cooled. For some people there is no such thing as a proper water cooled Porsche and never will be. Which for them is fine.

Porsche made a strong marketing link with the GT-1 block from its last Le-Mans winning car and the engine's in the turbo and GT3 for both 996 and 997. For some people that made their Turbo/GT3 special and the mythology around the engine only served to make the car more desirable. A move to DFI breaks that link in many peoples mind and its clear that it is seen as an unacceptable change to some, just like the water cooled engine was to others. If it works for them, then thats fine.

The reality is Porsche are an incremental car manufacturer and the "all new" engine will have some parts carried over from the previous engine, as the water cooled engine did from the air cooled engine. And ideas that worked in motor sport will effect the design for road cars (PDK for example, GT-1 inspired block for a second example). The're all good.

Emissions/ Regulations, new products from competitors and the need to remain profitable forces changes and technological "improvements" onto Porsche. To stay in business they have to move with the times.

Still they have managed to build a new turbo thats more powerful, more torquey, has better fuel efficiency and if the initial reviews are correct, is much more nimble and weildy on road and on track. Which can only be good for you lucky people that have them on order.

For those that prefer the Gen1 and a DFI engine will never be a proper turbo, thats good for you as well. If you have one cherish it.

If you want to buy one there are plenty of them bought by previous 996/997 owners who were told at the time they were mugs for buying new that are now at very appealing prices second hand. Buy one and enjoy it.

When the economy picks up again, if I have the spare cash some time in the future. Then I am likely to join one of the two camps but at the moment I couldn't tell you which. I only know that when I buy it, to me it'll be the best car ever[]