New car and a long list to start on!

[333pg333]

Ben, it's a really difficult choice to make when it comes down to 'the list'. What is really hard is stopping when you know you could just spend a little bit more and it would enhance the parts you've already shopped for. As an example, I have a Tial/Garrett bb turbo now. I'm not 100% of the exact specs. I bought it as a GT3076 and I think it has a .63 housing. I will re check this all out next week when the parts get swapped out of the Grey car into the Black one. However it's a great little turbo and would be fantastic for the majority of applications. Where I started to stumble was thinking I should get a cam and then some custom exhaust manifolds. This would have been easy too as I have already got some RHD headers for another project and the cam is sitting on the shelf at the moment....but it just kept adding up and seemed just one more thing to spend money on, when this is meant to be an interim car. So long story short, I am in agreement with Scott. The Vitesse stuff does work very well straight out of the box. You could even get a Garret turbo and mount, and get a Vitesse MAF to suit. This is what I have now.
As Scott also mentions and I'm sure you're more than aware of, the suspension and brakes are probably more important than outright hp.
Feel free to contact me if you want a little more advice on options. I have no commercial interest in anything, just a fair bit of experience regarding mods.
Also standalone doesn't have to be crazy expensive.

Patrick

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

Two years ago Exeter OPC quoted a rear quarter for £600

If it's any help, when I was buying my panels I was quoted that for the nearside but considerably less for the offside (circa £400). This was a couple of year back now however. I couldn't see a reference to which side you needed though, so this may not be that helpful!

 

[marcoturbo]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

Vitesse has his level three kit dyno'd on an otherwise stock engine at 350 rwbhp at 15psi boost pressure - so a truly bolt on kit that works out of the box, can be optimised and returns a good power level at a boost level that the engine can easily stand without compromising longevity and reliability. In reality it is a bargain.

Any link to a dyno chart ?

It sounds very optimistic.

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: marcoturbo

Any link to a dyno chart ?

It sounds very optimistic.

Here you go: Level 3

 

[AndrewS]

The Vitesse kit has worked well for many people. I am sceptical that 350 rwhp (Stage 3R) can be achieved with the standard exhaust and wastegate; however I am more than happy to be proved that it can.

The Vitesse Kit uses their MAF solution (including the piggyback DME add on), a revised Turbocharger and appears to be a straightforward bolt on.

350rwhp equates to about 410bhp at the crank! Does anybody have this fitted and have they dyno tested it at all?

I like the idea of retaining the boost control of the KLR, but the KLR has a 1.0 bar limit (which the Vitesse kit is exploiting). 1.0 bar should be no problem for the standard exhaust and wastegate. However, can 1.0bar (14.7 psi) with suitable fuelling and ignition advance make 410bhp? The original car made 220bhp at 0.5 bar, the later models 250bhp at 0.7bar. Power will increase with boost, but proportionately less so as you approach the limitations of the exhaust, the headers and inlet. Most L2 cars make 300+ bhp (genuine + verified). The MAF solution and big injectors means that you can work with a much wider range of air flow; hence I can see how this might be possible.

$4195 + shipping, customs clearance and VAT will be approximately £3650 landed on your door step. Reasonable value if it delivers that bhp! You will need to add injectors to that price it seems (about £300) and fitting (unless DIY fitment is deployed).

I'm interested to read of other's practical experiences of this.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[sawood12]

Yep, I'm sure there is probably a caveat against that which assumes the rest of the car is running in fine fettle. John would be crazy not to, but I guess you have to take all BHP claims with a pinch of salt, but by the same token you have to accept that unless your car is knackered you're going to be there or there abouts. In anycase, on a chassis dyno isn't the RWHP directly measured at the rollers and they are only inaccurate when you correlate the measured RWHP to FWHP as this requires assumptions about transmission efficiency and inertia to be made? I see no reason why RWHP cannot be accurately measured on a chassis dyno (but am willing to be educated on the matter!). 1hp =753KW and therefore power is easily measured at the wheel via the rollers? Anyway, if we assume that there is a +/-10% variability from a chassis dyno then that means the Vitesse stg3 kit is at worse you're looking at 315 RWHP which can't be sniffed at for the price. There are plenty of people out there who have spent more on their cars and achieved less gains.

I think the most important thing with engine mods is before you spend any money at all is to have a good long think about what it is you want to achieve with the car - not just headline BHP and Torque figures, but power delivery, lag, everything. The mistake people make is they go out and buy a bucketful of off-the-shelf parts that are not complimentary with eachother - some parts aimed at HP at high RPM, some aimed at BHP at low rpm etc. People love to simplify this very complicated topic and focus on one or two parameters - e.g. flow or boost pressure. In reality there are hundreds of parameters to consider to do the job properly.

 

[333pg333]

I find that numbers are subjective. Numbers and dynos. There is nothing to say that these numbers aren't being achieved with exhaust, wastegate, cam mods so as Scott says...take with a grain of salt. The thing is that the kit will support those sort of numbers as you make changes to the car. Tuning is easy via laptop. You don't need a dyno in reality. The aftersales service is also as good as it's reputation. The downside is that it's not cheap but you have to look at alternatives. Not a lot out there. If you want to go more of a customised route you could get a Garrett bb turbo, custom mount, standalone with harness & base maps for a similar amount. Plenty to think about.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

Latest news is the car is at Hartech ready to get sorted for an mot

Make sure you ask Barry for a drive in his 3.0L conversion whilst you're up there [8D]

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

Make sure you ask Barry for a drive in his 3.0L conversion whilst you're up there [8D]

[][][] I was just about to post. I spent 2 hours in my car followed by about an hour in Barry's 3.0 turbo today and getting straight out of one into the other is quite probably the worst thing I've ever done![]

 

[Diver944]

Heh heh heh

I sense Bens £££££££££££££££££ going to the 'go faster crack pipe dealer ' []

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

ORIGINAL: Diver944

Make sure you ask Barry for a drive in his 3.0L conversion whilst you're up there [8D]

[][][] I was just about to post. I spent 2 hours in my car followed by about an hour in Barry's 3.0 turbo today and getting straight out of one into the other is quite probably the worst thing I've ever done![]

How does it compare with a JMG 3.2?

 

[DivineE]

It's not really comparing apples with apples because my car was running a lot more boost so had more 'turbo assist' off boost and a more focused punch on boost than Barry's standard car but the general character of the thing was very similar and its just so much nicer than a 2.5. It makes no sense that just .5 extra capacity can make such a difference. The standard car just feels so weak and puny now, even with big boost it's just like a semi skimmed experience with a donkey kick at the high end. A 3.0 even in 'standard' form like Barry's experiment is the full fat version it makes a fast 2.5 feel like a home modified toy next to a factory built GT. The acceleration is just so much richer everywhere that the car is transformed into something really quite serious about making progress. It never disappointed any time the throttle was depressed and man do they sound aggressive. I'd forgotten that roar!

I've now got to go away and have a real long hard think about what I'm going to do when this car is restored. I might delay the tuning process by getting the car perfect to my specifications first but I really have come away today feeling that nothing would be a substitute for that 3.0 feeling.

When I got back starry eyed Barry loosely suggested it might be possible to leave everything standard with the block/head etc and just install a set of his 3.0 liners with my original 2.5 block/head to keep the costs down and give me that 3.0 feeling without having to go mad with a full custom build and its associated costs.. all I can say is I'm seriously thinking about it.

p.s. 333pg333 that is exactly the turbo I was looking at but its available with various hot sides. Would be interested to know what you go for and how it performs. .6 is similar to the hotside of the k26/6 on the 220 car so I was worried about restriction. .84 is near as damn it the same as a K26/8 hotside and I went in a very nice car that ran a K27 with an /8 hotside so I think there is a lot of potential in a larger compressor and BB turbo combo.

p.p.s. I have been doing quite a bit of turbo research so definitely wont be just buying shiny bits to mix and match don't worry. I'm trying to think it through properly.

p.p.p.s. in response to Frenchy no this wasn't the well cared for turbo I was intending to buy I just couldn't help myself and the opportunity to save and restore a car + the teledials I wanted overruled in the end.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

but I really have come away today feeling that nothing would be a substitute for that 3.0 feeling.

Welcome to that S2 experience....[]

 

[Frenchy]

Ben,
Your just a teledial whore, you will like my 220 ! (Sorry for swearing ? ) peeps !
Good on you for saving one let us know how you get on, ask Barry at Hartech for a mates discount ?

 

[DivineE]

Hah! I'm not the one with two sets of teledials! That's just greedy[]

 

[marcoturbo]

There's a gap between the 310-330 rwhp claimed by John@Vitesse on the website based on US dynos and the 350 rwhp we talked about (always at 15psi).

I know the product quite well since there has been a S3 kit in my car for 2 years [] I haven't been on the dyno yet but my dyno in the pants makes me think I don't have 350 rwhp (more my EBC is set at 18psi not 15psi).

 

[barks944]

Did barry give you a rough idea at price for a set of liners for his 3.0ltr conversion?

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

but I really have come away today feeling that nothing would be a substitute for that 3.0 feeling.

Welcome to that S2 experience....[]

EXACTLY! Everyone knows that S2's are much, much quicker than even the quickest turbo, and this thread just proves it.

Well said McNulters. There's a man who knows his onions. And Porsches. You see chaps, you don't get to be the 944 register owning wotsit for the Porsche Club of Great Britain without knowing a thing or six about Porsches. And 944's in particular.

Bravo, sir!


Oli.

Dammit, 'full fat' comments like that above make me really think that I might have to try out Barry's 3.0 turbo. One can never have enough power, eh? Particularly in a chassis as capable as a 944. Dammit.

 

[DivineE]

You N/A boys will never learn.. we only complain about the lag because its as slow as an S2 until the turbo kicks in[][]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

Dammit, 'full fat' comments like that above make me really think that I might have to try out Barry's 3.0 turbo. One can never have enough power, eh? Particularly in a chassis as capable as a 944. Dammit.

To try it is to buy it.[] ..but you really should experience it.

p.s. no idea on price sorry, it was a short conversation as I was leaving my car to be serviced at the end of the day. If your tempted I would give Barry a call and try to get yourself a ride in his car. Bearing in mind it's all achieved on standard boost pressure (which is what 7psi?) its an impressive package.

 

[DivineE]

This morning though I have seen sense (slightly) I'm determined not to go down the big power addiction route AGAIN and I AM going to stick to my plan of just buying a bigger turbo and the few bits I need to run it. I am not going to get carried away chasing those few extra bhp at limitless cost and I'm going to concentrate more effort on restoring the car to what it should be.

however that doesn't stop the possibility of installing a set of 3.0 liners in a few months to improve the drivability with the existing package I'm installing now