New M3 are you tempted

okellyt · May 14, 2007

Just looking at the spec for the new M3 in Evo, at £51k its got C2 eating perfromance figures, as does the RS4 and the forthcoming RS5. All for a similar price as a base C2.

So are we to be tempted away by these beats - it definately looks like BMW and Audi ahve the 997 in its sights with these cars they have gone significantly upmarket an price in the current evolution. The new range topper Merc C class is rumoured to have 500bhp (albeit we can assume it won't have the same connection to the road as an M3)

So who's tempted by these?

Isn't this going to push Porsche into significant power upgrades on the 997 facelft to keep up?

Isn't this going to harm residuals for the stock C2 and C2S?

If Porsche want to keep basic preformance on a par they'll need to be dropping 30 - 40hp extra in each model......

oceancarrera · May 14, 2007

Repmobile or 911 ?

kennyboy · May 14, 2007

Even ignoring everything else a 997 C2S has a near identicle bhp per tonne with the RS4 - I would expect it to be the same or slightly lower than the V8 M3 so the S isn't down on power already.

These 400+ bhp figures look impressive but at 1650kg it's no modern Carrera slayer.

Dylan1 · May 14, 2007

i feel my cs has enough horses already Tom(tho i wont say no to 30 or 40 more!)given the cameras round here.even has enough for the track.
anyway no way i`d swap for a bland 3 series -bmw M3-or other-(even tho my wife has one for the school run!!)

Guest · May 14, 2007

I owned two E46 M3's and was deciding on a slapping a deposit down on the new M3 a year or so ago. I then saw the pictures of the car, and decided on a C2S.......... Sure it will be great with performance to match, but it's just another glammed up 3 Series IMO. The E46 has far more style & will become an icon in years to come. The new model just doesn't turn me on, hence the reason I opted for a 2006 C2S.

Andyg400 · May 14, 2007

Not that I am biased, but you can't order a new RS4 anymore ....making way for the new RS6 V10 Twin Turbo

kennyboy · May 14, 2007

I've just read about that beast - looks amazing.....and if it's under 2 tonne should be a dragster too!

Adam2S · May 14, 2007

Sod the M3 - have you seen Audi's new RS5 !!!! The stakes have just been upped significantly.

£53,000 buys you :
3-door coupe
4.2 V8 developing 450BHP and 500lb ft.
4WD
Carbon ceramic brakes
19" wheels as std
EDC (Audi Magnetic ride) as standard

No word on weight but it looks like great value compared to the E92 M3, and whats more I think it looks really great too. When you add in 19" wheels and EDC to the M3 is already the same price. And as for the engine - Those 200cc give 35BHP more than the M3 and more importantly over 200 lb/ft more torque - thats a HUGE increase over the M3!

Ive never been a huge Audi fan but this sure seems to hit the mark for me in the way the E92 just hasnt done so far. I am still on two dealers order books for the E92 M3, but I gave up and jumped ships to the 997S due to lack of inspiration over the M3 - mainly over looks [:'(] It would have been my third new M3 in a row, and would have started my 6th year of M3 ownership.

Would love to see a head to head test of the RS5 -v- new M3.

Read the sneak preview review on carmagazine at : http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/secret_new_car.php?sid=701&page=1

okellyt · May 14, 2007

ORIGINAL: kennyboy

Even ignoring everything else a 997 C2S has a near identicle bhp per tonne with the RS4 - I would expect it to be the same or slightly lower than the V8 M3 so the S isn't down on power already.

These 400+ bhp figures look impressive but at 1650kg it's no modern Carrera slayer.

Therin lies the challenge - most respondee's so far have a C2S with power to weight about the same as the Audi. You need to x51 to beat the M3 (269 vs 265)

However where does this leave the entry level C2 without the extra gg's and trick electronics.

Kind of suggests the entry level in future would be at the C2S if you don't want to be burnt off the road by most repmobiles.............

oceancarrera · May 14, 2007

If someone bought a 911 to avoid being "burnt off the road", I would honestly suggest they bought the wrong car! I am sure that a C2S will still be just as quick as the new E92 M3 over any normal road. That RS5 looks like a nice GT...

Dylan1 · May 15, 2007

couldnt agree more adrien
i never bought either of my porsches to avoid being burnt off!!
purely for my own driving pleasure and not disappointed yet![

]

new rs5 looks the biz tho...!

Ian W · May 15, 2007

ORIGINAL: Adam2S

Sod the M3 - have you seen Audi's new RS5 !!!! The stakes have just been upped significantly.

£53,000 buys you :
3-door coupe
4.2 V8 developing 450BHP and 500lb ft.
4WD
Carbon ceramic brakes
19" wheels as std
EDC (Audi Magnetic ride) as standard

No word on weight but it looks like great value compared to the E92 M3, and whats more I think it looks really great too. When you add in 19" wheels and EDC to the M3 is already the same price. And as for the engine - Those 200cc give 35BHP more than the M3 and more importantly over 200 lb/ft more torque - thats a HUGE increase over the M3!

Ive never been a huge Audi fan but this sure seems to hit the mark for me in the way the E92 just hasnt done so far. I am still on two dealers order books for the E92 M3, but I gave up and jumped ships to the 997S due to lack of inspiration over the M3 - mainly over looks [:'(] It would have been my third new M3 in a row, and would have started my 6th year of M3 ownership.

Would love to see a head to head test of the RS5 -v- new M3.

Read the sneak preview review on carmagazine at : http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/secret_new_car.php?sid=701&page=1

2 small turbos....... hmmmmmm! Swap 'em for 2 big ones and a re-map and who knows, a 500-600bhp RS5 might be possible. If that lot cost approx £10k, you could end up with a hell of a car for £63k!!

kennyboy · May 15, 2007

ORIGINAL: oceancarrera

If someone bought a 911 to avoid being "burnt off the road", I would honestly suggest they bought the wrong car! I am sure that a C2S will still be just as quick as the new E92 M3 over any normal road. That RS5 looks like a nice GT...

It's important though isn't it - I think if we were being honest most of us would not want to be out accelerated on the motorway too in a 911....after all isn't that where 85% of all so called 'races' are actually held these days.

Yes everyone knows that if car 'A' can out drag a 997 to 120mph or so from 50mph on the motorway it will still probably be made to look silly on a race track by the 911 but the majority of owners (not necessarily the ones that frequent car forums) will never take their's to the track.

Maybe I need to get out more but I enjoy little 'skirmishes' on the motorway and if a BMW/Audi/Merc coupe (or saloon) pulled away then it'd be an issue! [

]

So to end my rant I think yes Porsche may well have to do something if the ptw is going over 250 per tonne in the new wave....maybe S becomes standard and X51 becomes S ?

okellyt · May 15, 2007

ORIGINAL: kennyboy

It's important though isn't it - I think if we were being honest most of us would not want to be out accelerated on the motorway too in a 911....after all isn't that where 85% of all so called 'races' are actually held these days.

Yes everyone knows that if car 'A' can out drag a 997 to 120mph or so from 50mph on the motorway it will still probably be made to look silly on a race track by the 911 but the majority of owners (not necessarily the ones that frequent car forums) will never take their's to the track.

Maybe I need to get out more but I enjoy little 'skirmishes' on the motorway and if a BMW/Audi/Merc coupe (or saloon) pulled away then it'd be an issue! []

So to end my rant I think yes Porsche may well have to do something if the ptw is going over 250 per tonne in the new wave....maybe S becomes standard and X51 becomes S ?

Kenny

One of my points exactly - while we buy our 911's for their driver engagement and thrills, if you can't pull away from a Euro box in the 50 -100'ish mph motorway blast, it does kind of grate especially if the eurobox is £20-£30k cheaper. [

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I know its the Subaru/Evo I - X argument but the difference is that the RS5 and M3 are just as well put together inside with beautiful itneriors and hadle really well (has any one seen a top of the line Audi interior recently).

So the question is where does the extra cash go - A comment made earlier was that the C2S would be at least as fast over real roads kind of re enforces your point it matters to us that these apparent £50k GT as as near as fast as our 911's from A-B [

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So what about the stock C2, once specced £10k more but slower both on paper and potentially from A-B (same driver skill) [X(]

I think this could be Porsches profit achillies heel - ignore the power but to sell in numbers the 911 has to be that bit faster than the stock M3/RS/AMG Eurobox saloon. Just a couple of tenths to 60, and a second or so to 100 but crudially by a big margin cross country or on the track. If they can't a lot of people who buy the car for its perfomance image won't spend the extra and will go BMW.Audi/Merc instead. From recent press releases BMW/Audi?Merc know this and have deliberately targetted this group with their new range.

This is one of the reasons the x51 was brought out so soon after the C2S launch, making the C2S x51 funnilly enough a couple of tenths quicker to 60 and 100 than either the M5 or RS4 and a second or so quicker to 124 (200kmh). And much faster round a track. Where the stock C2s was lagging a good second to 100mph

I think Porsche will have to make a big performance hike in the facelifted model to keep their sales up.

Me I think the new M3 is a bit ugly in the picci's but he Audi RS4/5/6 look the business.

I'd still have the 911 for the way it drives[

] but be really p**d off about being blown away by the Euroboxes on the motorway.

edited to correct quote. garyw

kennyboy · May 15, 2007

I agree Tom I could see your original point. I suppose Porsche gave them room to catch up and now they have?

I must admit I'm finding top end Audis very desirable these days - the fit and finish on the inside and the type of materials must the best in the world at the moment? Thank heavens Porsche upped the quality from the 996/986 on the 997/987 as the gap would have been embarassing.

When my mates used to go on about RS this and M that my stock answer was - too heavy and they cook their brakes but I hear BMW may have finally sorted the brakes out and there's a lot of aluminium and carbon fibre in the new ones isn't there.

Atleast their lap times are still significantly down on 911's from what I read - maybe this is our last bastion? [

]

Julio Geordio · May 15, 2007

As you may have read earlier, I have a deposit down on an E92 M3 and have had for nearly 2 years now, so I have a vested interest in this discussion.

But let's put these repmobiles in to context (a dreadful expression, makes me think of a Vectra, but whatever). So what if some cars can match a 911 on a motorway? It's not hard to make a car go fast in a straight line. I always sit there with a smug feeling knowing that I'm driving an icon that offers me so much more as a driver who enjoys the unsurpassed feedback and the reward of feeling that sense of unity with the car and the road. I know that come to a bend, I can employ that fantastic balance and huge grip and traction to get through it quicker and then change direction again with more control, and that's the fun part. Porsche will undoubtedly rise to the next level and add more poke on the facelift but even ignoring that, the credibility of the 911 is difficult to surpass. And if you were strolling up to the car park with a 911 and an M3/RS5/AMG parked next to it, you'd be ever so slightly smug that you were getting in to the 911.

Having said all that, I'll be taking the M3 for various other reasons. But for the reasons above I'll be back in a Porsche again in the not too distant future.

Rob Edwards · May 15, 2007

I agree

I didn't buy my 911 because it was 'the fastest' - I bought it because I appreciate the pedigree of racing heritage, the gradual (some might say glacial!) evolution of the 911 over the years and for the practical thrill of driving it.

Personally, I don't care that 'X' has more bhp or torque - if that's what turns you on, then fine (why I didn't buy an AMG Merc), but personally I want to experience a car that I can enjoy, whether at 50mph or 150mph.

I look at the shape, the noise, feel the fluidity and poise on the road and every time I grin to myself and remind myself.......it's a Porsche[

]!

Here's a test - look at an early 911, say a 911E, and compare that with a BMW 2002tii (nice car in it's own right) - which one would you prefer to take for a spin?
30 yrs from now, the test would yield the same result imho![

]

kennyboy · May 15, 2007

Of course you're right guys - and I agree, it's why I paid well over £40k for an 11 year old car....there is no substitute.

Though IMO for new Carrera money you could reasonably expect everything you said above AND it be faster in a straight line.

sawood12 · May 15, 2007

High power and torque figures are all very impressive for grabbing headlines in the motoring press but ultimately it boils down to how much power can the car actually use. The 997S will use all of it's horses, and more than the M3, wereas the M3's horses will be electronically constrained. 0-60 figures are also meaninless - it all boils down to a question of gearing. If you want a car to beat a Porsche to 60 or 100 or 120 then you can gear it to do so, however you are very well compromising the gearing in other areas of the driving envelope. The one thing that Porsche has always done better than any other motoring manufacturer is strike that delicate balance to give you the very best compromise between performance and ride quality and the mirriad of other parameters that need to be balanced. As fine cars as they are the M3 and fast Audi's so far have failed to pull one over the 911, and nothing i've seen or read so far tells me that the status quo is about to change.

997 owners can afford to be smug for a while longer in my opinion!!