New turbo - 3.8l 500bhp - PDK->

[yan]

via the Porsche home page!

New features (my quick read):
DFI 3.8l 500hp
PDK - 650->700Nm limit (overboost); paddle shift (option) => weight of 1595kg (Co2 268g/km; 34.9mpg - extra urban)
PTV - Porsche Vectoring Technology (option) - lsd + applies brake on inside wheel on high speed cornering
Dynamic engine mounts (Sport Chrono package Turbo)

Revised mirrors
LED rear lights
Titanium front (side) intake grills
Choice of wheels (*2)
Dynamic headlights (option)

Manual/PDK
Top speed: 194mph
0-100kph - 3.7/3.6 (3.4 PDK with Sport Chrono Turbo)
0-200kph - 11.9/11.3s

Base Price - Manual: £101,823 PDK: £104,375

Tempting? A proper test drive would be required...

 

[Alex L]

Repost

From the 911 Turbo forum: http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=477223#

 

[garyw]

Alex, thats the 930 Turbo forum []

http://www.porsche.com/uk/aboutporsche/pressreleases/pag/?pool=international-de&id=2009-08-07

Porsche press release..

garyw

 

[Alex L]

Here are the official performance numbers and how they fit with other 997's:

 

[Geoff_Fields]

So, how long until the GT3 gets PDK with paddle shift?

 

[Alex L]

ORIGINAL: Geoff997

So, how long until the GT3 gets PDK with paddle shift?

Not until at least the 991 replacement for the 997. The GT3 facelift retained the GT1 engine that is not compatible with PDK, so Porsche need to change engines before they can fit PDK.

 

[blueSL]

I'm very impressed by the scale of change in the 997.2 turbo. I know some will bemoan the demise of the old engine but, get real, Porsche has to compete and meet ever more stringent emissions regs. Plus, they have a fabulous new engine plant in Zuffenhausen all geared up to deliver the engine.

Most of the moaning here, and on other sites, seems to be from people who bought a first generation 997 turbo and are now frantically trying to justify to anyone who will listen, how right they were to do so.

Not me. My deposit is in. Can't wait.

 

[yan]

The engine is cheaper to build (so I understand) and with prices being driven lower a 2.15% price increase is a little surprising. Arguably the product was underpriced in the first place, .e.g. versus competitors + demand, but if they do limit production suitably then it may add up (sort of).

I also suspect the engine will be better than might be feared. If it is based on the same engine block as the Carrera this engine is definitely an improvement in aspirated form and commonalities can benefit development, e.g. DFI - maybe even the exhaust system... Only time will tell regarding reliability but engine bench testing has moved on significantly also.

Curiously no mention of a sports exhaust nor a front suspension lift system (much better value when factory fitted) which I personally would like. No mention of the oil cooling arrangement either. Or have I missed these things?

 

[sawood12]

I don't believe that the demise of the GT1 enigne is down to economics. One thing is for sure, the future of petrol engines is DFI and the future of transmissions is double clutch, from both a power and torque performance perspective and an environmental one. If the GT1 engine is not compatible with either of these technologies then Porsche have made the right and only decision. The heart of Porsche are engineers, and German engineers at that. And Engineers base decisions on sound logic, chemistry and physics. There is no room for sentiment and nostalgia. There is no reason why this new engine should'nt be as good if not better than the old lump, bearing in mind we are comparing it to an engine that was the result of 30 or more years of continual development and at the very top/limits of it's capabilities. What we have here is a new engine that is at the very bottom of its development curve with many many more improvements and iterations in the pipeline. I believe in all other areas of life this is called progress and is generally encouraged and applauded!

Good to hear that Porsche have put an emphasis on weight reduction and driver involvement. This could be a new direction that the manufacturers' tit-for-tat one-over war could take now the whole power one upmanship is getting boring. And once again it is Porsche blazing the trail.

 

[Rotorhead]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

I don't believe that the demise of the GT1 enigne is down to economics.  One thing is for sure, the future of petrol engines is DFI and the future of transmissions is double clutch, from both a power and torque performance perspective and an environmental one.   If the GT1 engine is not compatible with either of these technologies then Porsche have made the right and only decision.  The heart of Porsche are engineers, and German engineers at that.  And Engineers base decisions on sound logic, chemistry and physics.  There is no room for sentiment and nostalgia.  There is no reason why this new engine should'nt be as good if not better than the old lump, bearing in mind we are comparing it to an engine that was the result of 30 or more years of continual development and at the very top/limits of it's capabilities.  What we have here is a new engine that is at the very bottom of its development curve with many many more improvements and iterations in the pipeline.  I believe in all other areas of life this is called progress and is generally encouraged and applauded!

Good to hear that Porsche have put an emphasis on weight reduction and driver involvement.  This could be a new direction that the manufacturers' tit-for-tat one-over war could take now the whole power one upmanship is getting boring.  And once again it is Porsche blazing the trail.

Agree entirely. Never subscribed to the quest for more and more power, or the nonesense about GTR v TT lap times, or ever invasive driver aids. Less weight and greater driver involvement is the way forward for any real Porsche.

 

[marlin]

Most of the moaning here, and on other sites, seems to be from people who bought a first generation 997 turbo and are now frantically trying to justify to anyone who will listen, how right they were to do so.


A bit harsh, cannot imagine anyone having to justify buying any 911 Turbo. []

 

[Alex L]

ORIGINAL: blueSL

I'm very impressed by the scale of change in the 997.2 turbo.

Yeh, an extra 20bhp, 2 extra MPG, and 2mph more top speed is certainly impressive [8D]

I know some will bemoan the demise of the old engine but, get real, Porsche has to compete and meet ever more stringent emissions regs. Plus, they have a fabulous new engine plant in Zuffenhausen all geared up to deliver the engine.

Compete? What makes you think Porsche are bothered about competing? If they were then it would be a 50bhp jump. But then there is the marketing strategy to consider where each model has to have less power than the model above it (the GT2 in this case). So this change certainly looks far more about Porsche margins and far less about the replacing an antiquated engine (which won engine of the year only 2 years ago). Porsche are now saving a packet every 2010 Turbo they make, coincidence?!

90% of Turbo buyers don't care about having an over-engineered engine as they will never go near an aftermarket tuner. So no loss to Porsche making a car that can only handle 700Nm (assuming that ZF haven't brought out a 3rd box in the last 9 months that they haven't put a press release out about). They want people to pay for warranties, something that disappears when you tune.

Most of the moaning here, and on other sites, seems to be from people who bought a first generation 997 turbo and are now frantically trying to justify to anyone who will listen, how right they were to do so.

Moaning? I am over the moon at the changes! I was really worried that the face-lift would be as fast as a Stage II 997.1 Turbo. Luckily though it is wayyy off. As such if you offered me a straight swap of a fully loaded 997.2 Turbo plus £50k cash for my car.. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole! THE best thing about the 997.1 Turbo for me is the tuning potential. The smile that 800Nm+ puts on your face is just pure magic that never gets old. Take this away and I would head straight for a 997.2 GT3 without blinking.

Specifically on tuning potential; the new engine may turn out to be the wayyy stronger than the old GT1 based Metzger engine, the point is we don't yet know. All we do know is that the old engine is good for pretty much any power upgrades (within reason) that anyone would ever want for. It will certainly take a few years before this is established with the new engine. If there are even rumours that tuners have already studied the new engine (eg. from a Carrera) and they are concerned over it's strength then that would be enough for me to not tune until at least 2 years after tuners release the first powerkits. And there are already rumours.

PDK torque limits should also be considered. I don't know for sure what box is in the new Turbo and it's upper limits, but I do know that last year ZF Press announcement posted on Rennteam stipulated that 2 boxes were being presented to Porsche, the stronger of the two having a limit of 700Nm. If ZF have since brought out a new stronger box then I for one would be very interested to hear about it. If not then watch out even adding an after-market exhaust as you are already at the PDK's limit with overboost engaged. My Cargraphic exhaust mod on it's own is worth 30Nm of extra torque!

All I am trying to say is be careful here and don't get caught up in the ever glamorous Porsche marketing hype. The 997.1 Turbo was labelled a 'masterpiece' on release, and we all know how that panned out (eg. highly criticized suspension and being spanked by cheaper Japanese cars on it's home testing ground).

---------------------------------------

Of course if you don't care about aftermarket tuning/exhausts then ignore everything I have written above and enjoy your facelift Turbo which for sure will be a better car than the first generation stock car will be []

 

[sawood12]

Relentless power and torque is pointless when the true limit is not the torque capabilities of the gearbox or the strength of the engine but the limits of adhesion between the tyres and the roads. You can spout on about umpteen torques and mega HP numbers the tuning companies can extract till you're blue in the face, heck there's a guy in the states who got over 600bhp out of a 2.5ltr 944 turbo running stock transmission, but at the end of the day you're not necessarily getting all that down onto the road or there would be no need for traction or launch control. It's just chest beating and pub talk. Peak torque comes at low RPMs which is exactly where your traction control is working its hardest. I'm not saying the tuners don't make the cars go faster, clearly they do and that is why people use their products, but in the real world for the vast majority of people it's irrelevant and academic.

In anycase if ZF say they've build a PDK box that can take 700NM torque that really means they have built a box that can take 1400NM of torque and all you are doing when you tune an engine is trade in long term reliability and longevity (the over-riding design criteria for Porsche engineers as these are road cars afterall) for performance. |Peak power and torque are only two of a huge raft of design considerations Porsche design engineers have to work with, unlike aftermarket tuners who are only interested in peak power and torque numbers. As such all car components are designed with a factor of safety of at least 2 (usually more than 3) in the core design in order to get the margins they need for reliability and to withstand abuse. However the more you abuse the more you loose. We'll see what Porsches confidence in the new engine really is when (or if) the GT3 gets the new engine - I believe the only reason it doesn't get it now is due to racing regs not allowing DFI. I think Porsche has more credability than any of the aftermarket tuning companies.

 

[berty987]

I thought the whole philosophy behind Porsche modern management was to build cars and make a profit. The standardisation and sharing of parts across model ranges goes a long way to keeping costs down , so its no surprise porsche would want the new IMS free engine to work in all models of 911. The tooling costs and inventory savings by using a common block and components across the whole range are huge. As far as i'm aware the turbo , unlike the Gt3 and Gt2 is not a limited production model so its also made in the main Stuttgart factory , rather than the motorsport division . Using common parts will reduce the costs and improve lead times, volumes and profits. Whether porsche will have the confidence to fit this new engine to the forthcoming Gt3 and Gt2 models will be interesting to see. The may keep these models more bespoke to avoid end user bolt on upgrades of the lesser models and justify the price premium.

 

[bobfair]

My views are:
1. Some more very slick marketing from Porsche which I am sure many people will find appealing
2. Putting Alexs concerns about tuneability to one side I think the new engine offers lots of benefits (lighter, fuel efficiency etc) and is another step forward. Porsche tends not to make big leaps
3. PDK with Sports Chrono looks a must have for a Gen 2 Turbo as it is so much quicker
4. No sign of a sports exhaust so this car will be VERY quiet as new engine quieter than the old one. Gap between the road focussed Turbo and track focussed Gt3 has gotten much wider
5. The new sports wheel looks good with the paddles. This will be a must have
6. I expect Porsche will limit production (not as much as with the GT3 but less cars than Gen 1 Turbo)so get your order in if you want one
7. Most Porsche owners dont want to tune their cars so I doubt the concern about DFI tuneability will restrict sales
8. Pricing is not based on cost so I am not surprised Porsche has increased prices. despite engine being cheaper to produce. I have no problem with them trying to make money as I try to do that in my business.
9. A Gen 2 Turbo with PDK paddles and ceramic brakes will still be a lot cheaper than the real competition in red. I dont think many people considering splashing out £100k+ for a Gen 2 Turbo would realistically consider a Japenese cheaper alternative even if it was quicker. The Porsche brand is much stronger. Like it or not brands count for a lot
10. I see the Gen 2 Turbo as a step forward but mourn the passing of the genuine dry sump engine

My biggest complaint would be the lack of a sports exhaust option

 

[Geoff_Fields]

So I guess Bob that means your sticking with your GT3 order?

 

[okellyt]

ORIGINAL: bobfair

6. I expect Porsche will limit production (not as much as with the GT3 but less cars than Gen 1 Turbo)so get your order in if you want one
7. Most Porsche owners dont want to tune their cars so I doubt the concern about DFI tuneability will restrict sales

Bob good summary

Point 6 - I out my name down with a letter of intent in April and was told I'd probably have to wait 14 months from release ie March 2011. Implication being if you haven't already got at least a letter of intent or deposit in, your not too likely to get one.

Point 7 - I thought it was just a small number of tinkerers but as I have started messing with my car I've discovered many more than you might think. Still a minority but a sizable one.

 

[yan]

At this stage there are too many unknowns in terms of how much the differences make over the original version. In basic form the model doesn't sound that enticing as illustrated in the figures (I'm afraid people don't tend to look to change cars for efficiency reasons alone) - however with options, most of which might be considered a must have, this could be something I would look at further.
The engine mounts are advertised as making a difference both on road as well as track - maybe this is the last throw of the dice on improving handling of a rear engine car but such suspension makes sense.
PDK has been eagerly awaited on my part - Tiptronic isn't bad especially on the Turbo but lacks gears across the range and can be sloppy to react (maybe PDK won't be any better here).

In my experience to assess the changes a full-blown test drive is required - I was sceptical about how discernable 996->997 would be but as soon as I drove one it was clear. 997 Gen II engines are also a pleasure to drive and discernable from the 997.1 - whilst this is only a facelift I would expect the differences to add up to something which is more than just marketing...

I've read the odd rumour that an S version may come along before too long - if true this would add to suggestions in posts that Porsche are keeping performance possibilities in the pipeline.

 

[chrismouzou]

hi all

had a phone call from my opc yesterday-have been invited to opc on 23/11/09 new turbo at opc-will keep everyone posted



chris

 

[tscaptain]

ORIGINAL: J

PDK has been eagerly awaited on my part - Tiptronic isn't bad especially on the Turbo but lacks gears across the range and can be sloppy to react (maybe PDK won't be any better here).

It will be better.......[]