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Nissan - seen the layout ??

George Elliott

New member
I am interested to see that there is a new sportscar with a transaxle layout (plus 4wd) and its giving the 911T a difficult time.

(I have a concern about how a 300kg weight disadvantage and a small engine power disadvantage can achieve this) but I am pleased that the gtr has employed a layout which Porsche "prefer to ignore" is a winner for marketing reasons.
Competition is healthy and no-one has offered much to Porsche for too long.

So, will they continue to position the 911T as the "top model" Porsche, or will we see a faster model with a different layout?

Its difficult to ignore Nurburgring Lap times........

George
944T
964rs
 
I have heard it said that Porsche are suggesting they have gone as far as they can with the 911 configuration. So what's next?

I wonder if they will beef up the Cayman to supplant its "Big" brother. This would be good and bad. Boxsters are now relatively cheap and, one assumes, the Cayman will go the same way in 5 years (perhaps ready to replace Beaky [:eek:]). If they produce a "Halo Effect" Cayman this will keep residuals up and mean we will end up buying old cheap 911s [:'(]
 
Porsche are suggesting they have gone as far as they can with the 911 configuration

Its only gone that far with PASM and 4x4 etc. Take it all away and its a dangerous beast unless you are a very good driver.

Why dont they do away with the silly seats and reverse the current configuration ie: make it mid engined?
 
No, a Cayman is a boxster, however I do agree that it will probably evolve as the 911

I meant keep the iconic 911 but make it dynamically better
 
ORIGINAL: George Elliott

I am interested to see that there is a new sportscar with a transaxle layout (plus 4wd) and its giving the 911T a difficult time.
(I have a concern about how a 300kg weight disadvantage and a small engine power disadvantage can achieve this)

The R35 GT-R (they've dropped the Skyline moniker) is heavier than a 997T, but by approx 150kg as opposed to 300kg. And it has a 1bhp power advantage as opposed to a defecit.

Very interesting car, no longer shackled by the stupid 276bhp Japanese gentlemens agreement. I've always had a soft spot for Skylines after Mr Dron got very excited about an early R32 in Fast Lane magazine, years before most people had even heard of them.

And only £35K in the japanese domestic market? Unfortunately more like £55k here, but you won't find out 'til 2009 when the UK launch is scheduled.
 
ORIGINAL: Hilux

Porsche are suggesting they have gone as far as they can with the 911 configuration

Its only gone that far with PASM and 4x4 etc. Take it all away and its a dangerous beast unless you are a very good driver.

Why dont they do away with the silly seats and reverse the current configuration ie: make it mid engined?

I probably shouldn't, but to (roughly)quote a certain Geoff of Porsche GB, "In today's Nanny State controls and legislation, there is a market for a car that can still kill you - that is where the GT2 fits in".

Excellent! And as good a reson as I can see for a less than ideal configuration continued development. Hopefully that'll let Cayman prices drop to reasonable levels for John and I when some legislation or other stops us enjoying the '44.

Numbers mean nothing on the road...

Tref.
 
I think after Porsche have launched the Panamera, they will bring out a shortened wheelbase 2-door 2+2 coupe version with a rear hatch, front engine, rear box and better performance, fuel economy and handling. Like the 944 was to the 928. They will then drop the Cayman from the line.

The name will also be shortened, better to call the car the "Panama" than the "Enema".[;)][:mad:
][ima
porsche-panamera_sf2.jpg
Looks like the uglgly child of a 911 and a Citroen C4[:mad:]
 
Interesting comments, I mistakenly thought the weight difference was greater.
I would like to see Porsche develop:
a front engine/rear transaxle model,
a rear engine model which they have with the simple GT2 is perfect,
and a mid-engine model like the Cayman (or my old 914-6[8|]). Do the lot, then they have every sports configuration available according to each drivers taste.
My personal least favourite is the Mid engine, I find them scary because of the breakaway behaviour, and you may say a rear engine is worse but some-how I find its not, there's a "swinginess" to a rear engine that can be utilised to make it corner. Just personal taste.
The best in all weather has to be the '44, I find it mildly tail heavy, - try getting one to straighten up after a drift in snow[>:], but the overall balance is marvellous. The turn-in, traction, yumpy road behaviour, braking stability, trail braking balance, what can it not do? So forgiving too.
Imagine what we'd be missing if they never did the "924 family", and today they don't.
But the gtr has picked up on perhaps the ultimate layout and its going to make life difficult for Porsche.
And when that happens we see Porsche at its best, - so - I'm delighted.
George
944t
964rs
 
Bad news guys, early test drives say the ride is bone shaking hard and the engine doesn't sound great. Still though massive performance, better looking then I first thought judging by pics in recent mag articles and probably 40 grand cheaper then the 997tt.
 
ORIGINAL: George Elliott
I find <the 944> mildly tail heavy, - try getting one to straighten up after a drift in snow[>:]
Funny. The one thing that has surprised me about the 944 is how easy it is to control a drift (in the wet - never tried in the snow.) Get it out of line and it goes sideways, so back off the power and point it in the direction you want to go. Bingo! Easy compared with other RWD stuff I have driven (capri, old Volvos, S2000).

Could be a difference in geometry between yours and mine?


Oli.
 
ORIGINAL: Hilux

Porsche are suggesting they have gone as far as they can with the 911 configuration

Its only gone that far with PASM and 4x4 etc. Take it all away and its a dangerous beast unless you are a very good driver.

Why dont they do away with the silly seats and reverse the current configuration ie: make it mid engined?

You can say that about any modern car. The Ferarri's are bristling with F1 derrived electronic gadgetry that is keeping you on the road (and they are not much faster than the equivalent 911's - certainly £20 - £40k faster), the Jap cars even moreso and how do you think the recent generations of front engine'd/FWD cars have got so good? On the contrary despite the increase of electronic gadgetry in the 911 it has far far less than the vast majority of it's rivals - look at the GT3 (mechanical diff, conventional clutch/gearbox) vs the f430 equivlent (e-diff, flappy padel gearboxes, different traction control settings, different chassis stability control settings, different gearbox settings - the list is endless).

There are advantages and disadvantages to all layouts. The 911 layout gives you unbeatable traction but dodgy weight distribution

The mid-engines layout gives you the balance and weight distribution but struggles to get the power down and they are skittish on the limit due to the low polar moment of inertia.

This is where the front engines'd rear transaxel layout makes a good compromise. It gives you good balance, higher polar moment of inertia so is more progressive and controlable on the limt, and has the main lumps of weight (the engine and gearbox) positioned right over the axels so you get good traction. Problem is that it makes for a very inconvenient layout in terms of interior space and they will never do as well in motorsport because pro-drviers will prefer and get more out of the more skittish on-the-limit handling characteristics of the mid-engined cars.

I think the poor old 911 is getting a really undeserved bashing at the moment. It is afteral still the car to beat in terms of all round performer. There are cars faster on the track, more powerful cars, more attractive looking cars, but in terms of the blend of speed, performance (especially performance a normal driver on british roads can use), the fact it is the only truly every day usable car (moreso than the R8), the fact it is so reliable and relatively cheap to run. No other car at any price does that blend as well as the 911.

They've been saying that there isn't much more to come from that car, but in every evolution they push it that bit further. It's not the best at any one thing, but I think it is still the best at everything. I think the facelift 997 will be even better than the current model and god only knows how good the 998 will be. I think the 911 will be around for some time yet.

It will be interesting how the Cayman will be developed alongside it. In terms of a motorsport platform the Cayman is clearly the platform Porsche need to develop further, but the 911 has something no other car has got - character and style in abundance (maybe I should become a 911 salesman!). You could say the Cayman is 'just another mid engined car in a sea of other mid engined cars' but you can never say something similar of the 911. Ferrari have managed to successfully market mid engines sportscars along side front engined rear transaxel sportscars so there is no reason why the Cayman has to push out the 911 or visa versa. They can exist alongside eachother in blissfull harmony. A 911 for the daily commute and trans-continental tour, the Cayman as your weekend toy/trackslag!

 
Alfa 8C also front engined with a transaxle only manages 2 seats though like most modern coupes,
Tony
 
AFAIK maserati as well but with more seats. All 3 cars have ferrari DNA in them.


You could argue of course that the reason why so many high end GT's these days have a front mid engine and a rear mid transaxle is because of the 928.

Possibly Porsche's most influential car to date?

As much as we all like the 911 it is and always has been an automotive cul-de-sac, the only other notable rear engined road based sports car I can think of was the Renault Alpine series (A110/GTA/A610 etc.). The others are all kit cars or rally specials like the Darrian and the Ginetta G15.
 
Its not just coincidence that automotive engineers in several different companies pick this layout. (Not a question)

The best hope we have right now for getting the product we would like to see is if Alfa goes back to its routes and builds a nice coupe with this layout i.e. not a special like the 8c but a mainstream reasonable price product. It could happen, I recall an article stating that Alfa were seriously thinking of going this route.

Do you think such a car could make you go Italiano John? (the Chief Engineer bloke at Alfa these days is a german I believe)
 
OTOH, if no-one develops a new decent handling/looking/good performing fairly cheapish to run (as cheap as a 944-i.e 32mpg on a run) our cars will be appreciated in the future for what they are and the values will start to appreciate![:)][:D]

In fact, I might buy another 944.
 
ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

...The best hope we have right now for getting the product we would like to see is if Alfa goes back to its routes and builds a nice coupe .....

Something Italian is no more likely to see my drive than something Japanese. I'll stick with lusting after an Aston thank you. I still think a modified Cayman could be worth a look.
 

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