Nissan - seen the layout ??

[sawood12]

I agree John - a GT3-engined Cayman. That'd be a tasty car.

The 928 was a hugely influencial car. Though it's probably more famous for its fancy passive rear wheel steering. I've often wondered about the feasibility of grafting 928 rear suspension onto a 944 by attaching the wishbones onto a fabricated subframe that attaches via the rear torsion bar axel. I've seen photos of a number of 944 that have had double wishbone suspension grafted on but none as far as i'm aware have grafted on the full 928 setup.

 

[John Sims]

I've never driven a car with rear wheel steering but, as a concept, it worries me.

I have enough of a job understanding what the car is telling me without rear wheel steering. With such added complications I fear any messages coming back would be in another language.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

I agree John - a GT3-engined Cayman. That'd be a tasty car.....

It's pushing all the right buttons for me []

 

[George Elliott]

Agree the 928 is a big influence on todays premium sports coupe's. And a landmark car too. The engine in it was the inconsistent element for Porsche, and the reason it failed, in a Merc E500 it would be a great engine, but the 928 should have weighed 1350kg in 1977. They could have had the power (240bhp at launch) without 8 cylinders, but to sell it in in USA that was out. They could have had 350bhp plus by 1990. (both with a turbo)

I agree Scott, but I'd go the other way about it for a 9-28/44, put the 944T 3.2Lengine / tube/'box in cheap straight S4. I suppose I kinda like the look of a 928...[8|] really.

Oli, if it snow's remember where you heard it ! - mine is a std M030 with correct toe / camber, conti sport-contacts. It will straighten up on tarmac, greasy tarmac, gravel, but snow it will stay sideways for miles - power on/off you name it.

George
944T

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott
Oli, if it snow's remember where you heard it ! - mine is a std M030 with correct toe / camber, conti sport-contacts. It will straighten up on tarmac, greasy tarmac, gravel, but snow it will stay sideways for miles - power on/off you name it.

Really?

Fabbo! <rubs hands together with glee>

What's that song they were playing on the radio this morning? "Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow" ... !


Oli.

 

[Neil Haughey]

John - With a more discreet looking rear wing that would be push all the buttons. I agree on the whole Cayman thing. Didn't like it much at first but it is growing on me in the same way that the 997 is boring me because it is trying to hard to look like old 911's. Call me odd but when the 996 came I out I loved the whole looks, concept thing. Much closer to the original clean lines and philosophy of the 911. Ppl love the 993 but really that car was a frankenstein car or frankencar.

Driving in snow - Don't forget the tyres. I remember years ago when I had contisportcontacts I was scared to drive in the rain because the tyres had next to 0 grip when cold and wet. If warm and wet they seemed to work ok. Now I have what are supposed to be track day tyres but they seem pretty contrallable to me even in the recent mega cold icy conditions, they just have a nasty habit of snapping loose and then very abruptly gripping again in an almost violent fashion.

Drifting in snow - Did it years ago up in the midlands, the tyres were t1-s probably the worst tyre tread pattern for snow but it was huge fun, yes the back end would come out but everything happened so slowly that it was massive fun. 4 million times easier and enjoyable then trying to drift one of these cars in the dry (I don't have an LSD so maybe easier on M030 cars with an LSD).

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: John Sims

I've never driven a car with rear wheel steering but, as a concept, it worries me.
 
I have enough of a job understanding what the car is telling me without rear wheel steering. With such added complications I fear any messages coming back would be in another language.

Honda used to have it on the prelude years ago and AFAIK ditched it (good decision).

Saab have it on the 9-3 (bad move) and have made a big play about it but ppl that have tried to really push those cars (on track for example) tell me it is very scary because you come to the turn in point, wheel the car in towards the apex and then the RWS kicks in and makes it feel like the back end wants to say hello to the scenery all the time.

Renault ISTR have gone in the opposite direction in that their RWS on the new top of the range laguna steers in the same direction as the front wheels to give added stability in extreme situations. Sounds like a sound idea to me, especially if it only does anything when the car is starting to yaw rather then something which gets in the way of normal driving.

 

[George Elliott]

Neil, you captured what I was referring to better than I did, its the slow motion but lack of influence on the cars behaviour once its adopted a drift angle. A 911 would just spin every time, the '44 just sits there with you waiting for it to slowly straighten. It made me very wary of it after one long moment at about 40mph, on a road I know well.
I think the LSD just makes the car more predictable, and therefore easier to drive in this slow motion world we are talking about.

The honda 4WS was very clever, if you turned it (say) 30degrees each way from straight ahead, it turned the rear wheels the same way as the front, but wind on full lock and they went the opposite way for minimum turning circle. It was a mechanical system with a shaft front to rear and this clever steering box at the rear.
I think they patented it, it certainly struck me as clever. For all that, I would'nt want it.
George

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

....The honda 4WS was very clever, if you turned it (say) 30degrees each way from straight ahead, it turned the rear wheels the same way as the front, but wind on full lock and they went the opposite way for minimum turning circle. .......

.'. there must be a point where the rear wheels change from steering with the front to opposite to the front. Just the sort of thing you want mind corner...........................................NOT!!!!!! No wonder drifting started in Japan - they all had Hondas and were doing it all the time.

Obviously it is a superb system which is why all current top level cars are using it..............(again).................NOT!!!!

 

[sawood12]

The Honda system used Hydraulic rams to stear the rears and it was speed sensistive. At slow speeds the rears steered the opposite way to the fronts for manouverbility and at different rates dependant on speed (more severe at slow speeds). As the speed got higher the 4ws reduced until there was a speed where it was probably not operating. After which they steered int he same way as the fronts so you would sort of crab when changing lanes on the motorway.

The 928 system used clever suspension geometry to kick the toe out on the outer wheel and pull the toe in on the inside wheel when cornering hard but maintained toe if the suspension was operating in a straight line over bumps when you wouldn't want the 4ws effect. This was the clever bit.

Also the Corrado used compliant bushes that also allowed the rear wheels (or the outside one at least if the inside wheel was cocked up as it often would under hard cornering) to kick out a bit on toe to give you a 4ws effect under heavy cornering.

Its like anything - these things require getting used to and adapting your drivng style.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Its like anything - these things require getting used to and adapting your drivng style.

My brother had a "moment" on an autobahn with an early RWS prelude. A friend's car, he had no idea that it would switch lanes at speed in quite the way it did......[]

Surely the basic safety feature any car can have is not to spring unusual handling characteristics on you at maximum velocity?

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty
Surely the basic safety feature any car can have is not to spring unusual handling characteristics on you at maximum velocity?

Not trying to defend (or otherwise) RWS, but surely 'unusual' is purely a function of what you are used to. For someone who is used to FWD bimble-box modern euro hatchbacks, the neutral balance and RWD of a 944 is going to be pretty unusual, therefore would be deemed 'unsafe' by your assertion.

Indeed, the very agressive trail-braking snap oversteer exhibited by trodden-on-beetles could easily be considered unsafe by many, although I would not recommend that you say this too loudly at a 911 register meet.


Oli.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp


........Indeed, the very agressive trail-braking snap oversteer exhibited by trodden-on-beetles could easily be considered unsafe by many........

I believe Porsche would agree with you and have suggested that they have done all they can to control it. The current 911s are a tour de force in overcoming a fundamental design error. It doesn't alter the fact that the engine is in the wrong place though.

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

John - With a more discreet looking rear wing that would be push all the buttons.

Actually from a styling point of view I think the Cayman is a disaster which is why it has taken so long for me to come round to it. I still think it is a disaster - just plain butt ugly and doesn't fit with the rest of the car. I'm not a spoiler man - I much prefer clean lines, however in this case because the spoiler breaks up (and covers up) that disasterous back end it improves the looks of the car to no end, to my eye at least.

 

[George Elliott]

A 904 or 906 is ugly too