Noob - First buy advice

[danfloun]

Hi guys,

My first post here but not my last no doubt.
I'm keen to get my hands on a 944 as a weekend car, I have a van for work during the week.

From what I've read, the 944 S2 is the way to go.
What year vehicle should I be looking out for, I know some recommend avoiding anything pre 1986 or there abouts!

Not sure how much I want to spend to be honest, I think it's more a case that I'll look at a few cars and if something really strikes me then I'll consider it then. But, as a rough guide, what is a reasonable figure for a good condition stock 944 S2?

Maybe I should also have a minimum figure in my head, sometimes things can be 'too' cheap if you get my meaning!

Also, other than the usual places of rot to check, sils, boots & doors, petrol / brake lines etc, is there anything very specific to the 944 I can check that will give me some hint of tlc history, or not as the case may be!

Thanks guys, look forward to owning my first.

Regards
Danny

 

[Suffolk944]

Hi and welcome Danny

ORIGINAL: danfloun


From what I've read, the 944 S2 is the way to go.

Dont believe everything you read [] Best option will depend on what your budget is and whether or not you think you are going to be satisfied with the standard cars power output. If you think you will find yourself hankering for more then a turbo would be the way to go. Even a mildly modded turbo is a fine car and maybe ,just maybe, finer than the S2. []

Prices seem to be all over the shop for S2's at the moment I would say anything from £3500 upwards will potentially get you a good one but thats just my stab at it. There are good cheap ones and bad expensive ones too...

Dont discount the Lux or S if your budget is limited as they are fine cars in their own right and many prefer them to the later models. Not sure what the warning off of pre-86 cars is all about to be honest. Its certainly not something I would agree with.

 

[chrisg]

Dan

Welcome on board - you'll certainly find lots of buying and hands-on advice on this forum. A couple of things, my understanding is that S2's were only produced from '89 onwards with the last one being in '92 on a H or J plate - these have the 968 style colour-coded rear spoiler.

The S2 is a great car and very rewarding - well looked after it will run all day without any problems.

As a first time buyer =, pros:

1. Good strong ~ 210bhp engine that's generally very reliable
1a. The engine is very unstressed so unlike a turbo there's a lot less to go wrong
2. 4 pot calipers with vented discs all round so plenty of stopping power
3. S2 was upmarket model so leather, aircon, sports seats, LSD are possible options
4. Power steering and an oil cooler

Cons:

1. As with all 944's rust areas = sills
2. As with all 944's regular belt changes (every 30k or 3yrs) are vital as is having a new waterpump after > 110k miles
3. Specific to the S2 = Cam chain, sprockets and chain slipper replacement
4. Will feel quick but the chassis can handle much more power and it costs money to get extra BHP from N/A S2 engines -

Finally unless you're very mechanically minded/ good with cars, take an engineer or Porsche expert along to inspect the car - even if it has faults they're not insurmountable and can be good leverage to get the purchase price down !

Good luck, feel free to ring for a chat 07540 193 874

Chris

 

[Fat Albert]

Hi Dan and welcome, my advice is to not focus on any particular model, but to see what is available in your price range, I test drove a few different models before buying my Turbo

Also ignore mileage and age to a certain extent and just focus on the condition of the car and it's recent maintenance regime, my turbo drove the best of all that I test drove, in spite of its 194k at the time, due to the way it had been maintained through its life, it now has 207k!

You want a car that has either had a very enthusiastic and capable owner who has done their own work (I test drove a low mileage S2 who's owner was enthisiastic but not.. erm all that capable!) or one where the owner has had a good independant maintain it without too much regard for cost (One previous owner of mine had a bill every year during the late '90s, early '00s for more than I paid for the car!).

Make sure you budget for £1000-2000 a year maintenance (reactive and precautionary), I spent £700 on mine withinn 2 months of getting her, but then only spent £50 for the next year, followed by just over £2,000 this year, but she is now in much better condition than when I bought her and therefore no depreciation.

Lastly Turbos are no more costly or complicated to run than S2s, as they are based on the earlier,simpler 2.5 litre 8V engine. What does cost however, is the little tweaks here and little upgrades there that Turbo owners can find themselves doing, the worst case of this is a guy in Sweden who ended up with a TT engined one putting out 700+BHP!

We are obviously all far too sensible for that kind of caper! []

 

[danfloun]

Thanks all, didn't expect such a quick response.
Some good advice there and I appreciate it.

A couple of questions more though.
So does the turbo have a different engine or is it the same but turbo'd and bored different etc?

I also read, yes I know that's dangerous sometimes, that the S2 3.0l engine is more reliable?
Again, I assume the S2's all have the same engine just set up differently?

the worst case of this is a guy in Sweden who ended up with a TT engined one putting out 700+BHP!

Lol, there'll be none of that in my garage! it's too small for a start.

I'm quite hands on, partly because I can and partly because I'll need to for cost reasons. I do all my own mechanicing on my work van and bikes so I'm not scared of all that. Plus I won't ever need it to be on the road every day, for weeks even months. Which is good as winter time It'll probably get garaged with a water bottle... damn salty shitty pot-holy uk roads. []

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I know some recommend avoiding anything pre 1986 or there abouts!

There is some merit in this. It's the pre-1986 model year cars, so essentially August 1985 or previous. These are the cars with the 924 interior, and lack power steering.

Although the later Lux cabin, with the oval-style dash, are a more modern place to sit many would argue that the early cars are as good in their own way. As Pixieporsche noted the other day, they are more of a "classic" car than the later 944s.

In my opinion you need to decide what you want before buying. Have a ride in all the models, and be very realistic about your budget. Keeping a fund of at least £1500 is a good idea even if you buy the best, you might get one good year when all it needs is a service, the next year could throw several problems all at once. I don't know where you're based, but get to the Rutland meet in February and you'll see all the different models in one place.

I suppose I'd list the models as follows:

Early Lux, very cheap and simple if you don't mind the period interior and lack of PS

Late luxes, more civilised and plenty about. Cheap to run but some find the power too little by modern standards. I say rubbish, they are plenty fast enough for the UK and more fun on the smaller tyres.

S, first 16V. Rare and a bit of a Marmite car. Very peaky engine, but if you use the gears great fun in the Lux body shell. Absolute steal as many people find them an poor compromise between the Lux and S2 so prices are often lower than a Lux.

S2, bigger engine, 16V, bigger brakes and tyres. Newer bodywork isn't as nice as the Lux or S in my opinion, and they, in common with the Turbo, do rust more. Whether that's the plastic trim trapping crud or, as mooted here recently, poor steel on the later cars, I don't know. I see a lot of very late luxes in worse shape than early cars as well. Budget a lot more, things like brake overhauls can really bump up the service costs. They are sublime cars, though I still undecided over whether I prefer it to my old Lux: very different beasts indeed.

Turbo: It's been said that they don't cost more to run, I disagree. A standard turbo will have worn out parts that need replacing, and modern alternatives really improve the car. Once you're modifying it you have the best 944, but with higher costs and implications for insurance. And, once you've started you'll never stop tweaking it. []

 

[ukmastiff]

Yes I'd definately avoid any rather cheep but not rotten S2 you come about on your hunt.
Definately don't buy it if it's sound but just too cheep !!

(Give me the phone contact details for the seller so I can snafffle it b4 a dealer does though ) []

Enjoy the search though as it ( and the discovery) can be great fun.

Mas

 

[JamesBall]

If I were buying a 944 again now I would not look for the cheapest good car I can find (which is what I did) but a good car with no large expenses looming. This is noddy advice but large expenses include:

- refreshing all the suspension (I would look for a car with KW3s on specifically. orignial suspension WILL want replacing)
- solid sills
- replacement fuel lines (they all seem to need replacing about now and doing it "properly" is £500+
- Brakes, tyres, clutch all in good nick (just replacing tyres is a big chunk out of your £1000 slush fund for the first year)

This is all on top of making sure the car is fundamentally a good 'un.

My car was pretty cheap and is "definitely above average" according to my local indie but I needed to replace 4 tyres, the fuel lines and do a 24k service plus a few bits and bobs and has cost me £1500 already this year and there is an arguement for replacing the suspension at a cost of another £1500. So I may end up spending £3k on a car that is basically a good one but had a few big ticket items that needed sorting out.

 

[danfloun]

Thanks that's great.

I'll maybe get down to rutland meet.
I'm a couple of hours away, near york.

It appears that the S2 onwards have a troublesome chain tensioner if not kept in check.
How come the earlier versions don't have this problem, this must have some kind of tensioner surely?

 

[ukmastiff]

Pre S2 , S2 or 968 , either way you have a belt or chain to look after. None of them are troublesome if correctly maintained/changed and all need preventative maintenence. I dont believe their is really a 944 to avoid ( someone may correct me ?). No I dont want an early one as i dont like the drive but Mikes plain White older 944 is one of my favourite 944's ( to look at) just not to drive so its horses for courses. Saying that I'd avoid an Auto personally.

These cars are superbly built and 'remarkably strong' but just need to be kept correctly, they are of course ( as is I know obvious) not exactly new []

I agree with buying one with all the jobs done as a great idea but very few folk do all the jobs then quickly sell the car at any price and you still need to buy a sound one jobs done or not.

Mas

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: danfloun


A couple of questions more though.
So does the turbo have a different engine or is it the same but turbo'd and bored different etc?

I also read, yes I know that's dangerous sometimes, that the S2 3.0l engine is more reliable?
Again, I assume the S2's all have the same engine just set up differently?

The turbo engine is the same as the Lux (with some enhancements as well as the turbo of course), these are 8 valve engines and 2.5 litres (or 2.7 in the very last Luxes). The S2 is a 16V 3.0 derived from the earlier incarnation.

S2's are S2's - no difference in their set up..

 

[Hairyarse]

Welcome, I'm a noob with you too []

There's lot of great advice here and a friendly bunch, I've already had so many offers of help in the quest for my 944! It seems there's plenty about so keep your head on and wait until you find the right one for you. It is damn hard though to leave the rose tinted specs at home!!

 

[zcacogp]

Hello and welcome.

Best advice is as already stated - buy on condition, not mileage. Buy from someone you like (I've said it often enough on here before; nice people sell nice cars.) Don't fuss about any particular colour or interior, condition is all-important. Look at lots of them before you put any money down for one. Think about paying for a pre-purchase inspection before paying for one. Most indie's (Independant Specialists) will do this for an hour or so's labour, and it can be a couple of hundred quid very well spent. Or, if you find one that is local to someone on here, you may find that you can get an experienced opinion for nothing more than a few beers; if you find one near to me then I'd be happy to eyeball it before you splash the cash.

Keep us posted with how you get on.


Oli.

 

[Hilux]

1a. The engine is very unstressed so unlike a turbo there's a lot less to go wrong

Wrong in my book - in fact the opposite entirely.

The turbo does raise the compression (head gaskets failing are known on high mileage cars but most are still on originals at 120 - 200,000 miles) and if they run lean at full boost it is a risk but its rare. When compared to S2`s they only have one cam and 8 valves and no cam chain ( a known fatal weak spot in S2`s) so are in fact a much simpler engine with less to wear and fail.

Instead, a Turbo doesnt have to rev or work hard to go very very quickly whereas the n/a engines need to be thrashed to progress with a lot of modern machinery. If you thrash a Turbo you will be driving dangerously fast.

 

[danfloun]

Cheers once again guys.
I guess I have a lot of investigating and experimenting to do then!

Hey Hairyarse, maybe you should go to a salon for a crack wax if your arse is hairy enough to form a username from! []
Keep us posted if you get one landed.

 

[MRGT]

When I bought mine just over 2 years ago, I bought the best I could find for my budget regardless of which model. It just so happens it is the (much derided here [] ) 'S'
Since buying, it has covered 40,000 miles without any major issues apart from the usual consumables ( until the water pump failure, but that could happen to any 944) So my advice would be, buy the best maintained car you can find within your budget, regardless of model. They all have their good points and bad points.

(and just to have a dig at all those S2 owners...rusty sills ? what are they then [] ) .

Howard

 

[pauljmcnulty]

It appears that the S2 onwards have a troublesome chain tensioner if not kept in check.
How come the earlier versions don't have this problem, this must have some kind of tensioner surely?

I think we might be straying in to the old S, S1 and S2 confusion that I really, really need to write a faq about! [&:]

"Series one" cars are the square dash, 924 interiored luxes (2.5 8V no turbo) cars built up to August 1985, or the 1986 model year as Porsche model years run from September like school years. "Series two" is anything since: Oval-dash luxes from mid C-plate onwards, 16V Ventiler "S" models, S2s, turbos and the late 2.7 8V non-turbo luxes you see sometimes.

The S is a lux body, with a 2.5 16V engine. 1988 only it's therefore a series 2, as it has the later dash. S2 is 1989-on, 3.0 16V engine that gives you the torque missing from the first 16V cars. Again, it's oval-dash so a series 2 car.

All engines have a rubber belt, change maximum of 4 years/40K miles but better to do sooner and definately not later. Time is often the factor, as the cars tend not to be high annual mileage, so watch for "belts changed less than 20K miles ago", it could be ten years. Recommended is a water pump every second change, do all the rollers and oil seals if it's not in the history as recently done: I had to pay a second belt service charge after mine was contaminated with an oil leak and new belts have a habit of finding weak spots elsewhere.

Only the 16V engines have the timing chain driving the two cams. This has no service schedule, so it can be overlooked, but it's not a weak spot as such. There's the chain which can stretch, wearing the cam sprockets, and two plastic slippers on the auto tensioner that become brittle with age, potentially breaking up and then the chain isn't guided by anything. If it's not been changed in the recent history, budget for these items to be changed. Most specialists would have recommended the owners do this, certainly as the cars pass 100K mileages, so if it's not in the history ask why, and who's been servicing it? I had the cams checked before I bought my S2, for the cost of an hour's labour from the indy selling it I felt it worth the money. My car needs a belt service next year, from memory, and it'll be due a waterpump this time. I suspect I'll do the head gasket as well, as that's original and I plan to keep the car long-term.

 

[freebird65]

Hello, im a newbie too. Im currently running a 77 Scimitar GTE, my third one now and, as much as I love it, Im hankering for something a tad more civilised. Ive always liked the 944 shape, the interior and general quality that it exudes, so Im looking to move my Scimitar on and go looking for a suitable 944. Ive found the answers on here very enlightening, however, can i pin you down to how complex/costs involved for doing the belt/chain/waterpump? Are there any questions that i can throw at a seller that will have them reacting in a way which will tell me that they are upfront or not?
Ive got used to fragile electrics and the general foibles of my car, moving to Porsche doesnt scare me as such but the complexity of the car and potential bills do!! Are there specialist out there where you can get parts reasonably cheaply and quickly.
Series 1 or 2, it wont matter as i will put the overall condition ahead of its age but anything else that may help me when it comes to a search for one will be very much appreciated!
Many thanks
rob
PS: sorry for the hijack of the thread.

 

[Fat Albert]

Hi, having had my belts done twice in the past couple of years (long story) on my Turbo, the belts on their own cost me £300 an dthe Belts & Water pump cost me £500 this year (or thereabouts)

But on the other hand I have just ordered some new Mintex front pads and they cost me £25 delivered!

 

[pauljmcnulty]

ORIGINAL: freebird65

Im currently running a 77 Scimitar GTE, my third one now and, as much as I love it, Im hankering for something a tad more civilised.

One of my all-time favourites, along with the Lynx Eventer. [] It was seeing the way owners have to become electrical specialists that put me off, I was looking at one of the last ones made, who were they made by?

Ive always liked the 944 shape, the interior and general quality that it exudes, Series 1 or 2, it wont matter

Excuse the cut and paste, but the interiors are very different. I'd say the early cars are closer to the Scimitar in interior period, the later 944s are very much more late-80s than '70s, more on a par with modern cars. Things like better ventilation and power steering do add to the comfort.

Are there specialist out there where you can get parts reasonably cheaply and quickly.

Absolutely. See the faqs, Porsche are about the best when it comes to supporting older models and often surprisingly cheap. There are plenty of breakers, the best are on this forum anyway, and loads of specialist suppliers and garages. These are relatively common cars, so far we're not hitting parts supply issues.