Odd clutch pedal

[DavidL]

I think I froze something in the clutch on Tuesday. All was well on the way to work but then it sat in the car park all day at about -1 and when I came to come home the clutch wouldn't come up without me lifting it. (Clutch is barely 3 months old and has been fine)

It did this a couple of times but engaged properly all the same and stopped needing to be lifted after the first couple of times.

Now it seems ok but I'm not convinced - it seems a bit soft on the pedal feel for the first 2/3 of its travel but then its fine. It hasn't affected its function it just feels odd.
I topped up the reservoir but it was only just under minimum - i wondered if I had got some air in the system?

 

[Mike_Pollock]

Probably a leaking cylinder, I've had exactly that on the last 2 of my company vans (Renos)
Mike

 

[robwright]

You have a leaking master or slave cylinder mate without a doubt. Have had to do both of mine within the last six months. Those are the symptoms you get. Check the fluid level in the clutch resevoir it will almost certainly be low and dropping. Check for fluid at the top of the clutch pedal where it actuates the master cylinder if there is fluid there change the master cylinder. If there is fluid around the bottom of the clutch then it is the slave cylinder. Both not difficult to replace although the slave is harder you need to remove the starter motor.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Wot they said, but just to add that you might not see leaks from the slave cylinder as it tends to get blasted away before you see it.

There are only three options; master, slave or the pipework. It's usually the slave, as the Law of Sod says the most awkward one to get to will be the most likely to fail. [&:]

 

[DavidL]

Thanks guys, just what I need!
So what sort of time span are we talking about assuming I keep a close eye on the fluid level? Certainly it hadn't dropped overnight and there is no puddle of anything on the garage floor although it seems that it will drip in the footwell.
Costs, both of the cylinders and if I chose to book it in fitting?
Clarks master cyl changing instructions start talking about emptying the brake system too - is that right or have they got their words mixed up? Certainly one of their pics is of the brake reservoir not the clutch.

 

[robwright]

Don't worry about clarks they have dual brake and clutch resevoirs in the states. Each cylinder about £30 each and dead easy to fit don't book it in unless you are an absolute mechanical biff. No offence intended. If no obvious signs you have about two weeks before complete failure (don't quote me). If you want to do it yourself and need any pointers give me a call mate.

 

[DavidL]

Cheers Rob,
Much appreciated. I'll have a poke about tomorrow and see what I can find.
Bert and ECP are quoting about 80 for each cylinder - am I looking in the wrong place?
I have one of those Gunsons easibleed thingies which I used to use on my old mini cooper for the brakes. I'm assuming I can rig that up in the same way for the clutch and bleed it easily like that?

 

[sawood12]

If you're not seeing any fluid loss then how can it be the cylinders? Is there some other failure mode? I've never heard of them seizing or becoming sticky. If you're not leaking fluid then i'd say it could be the system is not bled properly. The clutch system is notoriously difficult to bleed on RHD cars and even specialists say they are a pig to bleed and different specialists have developed their own methods over the years.

Personally I would have probably changed the slave and master cylinders at the time the clutch was swapped out ;-) I think 20 yrs is a long time to expect components like that to last so why not replace while you're in there. Unless, of course, your cars history says they've been changed before then they're well overdue for replacement for the sake of an extra £100 on the bill of the clutch change.

 

[robwright]

Yes Scott it would seem counterintuitive. For both of mine fluid loss was at first very minimal I think it just passes by the seals rather than leaks, but in both cases total failure and indeeed considerable fluid loss was the ineviatble result. Like you said 20+ years is a lot to ask from theses parts especially if you are a new owner with a more exuberent driving style shall we say. Dave I may have been wrong about the prices but still not to expensive. I think porscheshop do both parts at a reasonable price and quality. You can use the gunson yes. You will need 7mm ring spanner to get on the nipple, which is very fiddly but all fairly easy with a glamorous assistant.

 

[DavidL]

OK so I've had a little look around. There is nothing leaking in the drivers footwell and nothing on the floor where the car is parked daily. The car drives ok currently.
I am going to get the car off the ground and have a look underneath properly but I may try and bleed the system and see if that makes any difference and how long that lasts!
Is there a bleed nipple on the master cylinder or is it all done from the slave when the system is complete?
It sounds like changing the slave isn't too bad but having almost got stuck under the steering wheel just having a look the master could be fun!!

 

[robwright]

On the contrary mate the master is a doddle to do. It is all done from the outside and a circlip to remove from the pedal on the inside to release the push rod mechanism. To do the slave you need to remove the starter motor. Easier if you have a pit or a lift. The bleed nipple is only on the slave and is a bit fiddly. 7mm IRRC. I am almost certain by your symptoms one of them is gone. With my slave cylinder the pedal only stuck down and got spongy when I was giving it some beans and had me really puzzled as it would return to normal straight after. I thouhgt maybe heat was affecting the clutch. This went on for about two weeks before the it finally gave up the ghost.

 

[DavidL]

I've just watched this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdf--suwqw0&feature which makes it a bit more understandable and makes Clarks make more sense. As you say Rob they don't have a clutch reservoir.
I'm thinking it will be the slave as I can see the master.
I'll get the old girl up in the air at the weekend and keep a watch on the fluid level daily till then.

 

[DavidL]

Rob, Did you change all the pipework too? If so where did you get it all from?
Porscheshop looks best currently (I might ring the OPC tomorrow, you never know).

 

[robwright]

No mate didn't do the pipework as all was fine. There is also the outside possibility that you have a leaky pipe. The pipe from resevoir to master is flexi and can be bought anywhere. The pipe from master to slave is rigid and could easily be made up using the old pipe as a template. Top tip if you are doing the slave refit the rigid pipe back to its union on the slave cylinder before putting it back in its housing on the clutch. There is every chance you will not get it back on after refitting the cylinder to the housing it is a very tight fit. A glamorous assisstant wouldn't go amiss for short periods either.

 

[Mike_Pollock]

Almost certainly not the pipe work
Flexy pipe is only gravity pressure and metal pipe is B***** to fiddle back through!
Master leak can usually be seen
Slave will leak into clutch housing and may not be seen for ages!
Changing slave is easy if you can get under the car
Will usually bleed ok on gravity alone
Mike

 

[DavidL]

Something is definitely leaking!
So off to Halfrauds or similar for some fluid at the weekend - anyone know what the volume the system is?

Thanks David

 

[zcacogp]

David,

Volume of system is tiny, certainly compared to the likes of brakes and whatnot.

I'd guess <500ml (and probably <250ml.)

All the best with fixing it.


Oli.

 

[DavidL]

Thanks Oli.
I didn't think it would be very much so easy enough to flush all the old fluid out at the same time.

I can't think of a cutting "slow " S2 remark on this occasion []

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: DavidL
I can't think of a cutting "slow " S2 remark on this occasion []

Don't worry. They all ring a little hollow in practice. Any simple comparison of the two models tells the truth, and if you turbo chaps would just realise that it would save a whole load of breath, bandwidth and effort. []


Oli.

 

[DavidL]

Just made it home! Managed 10 miles with about 4 gear changes - did you know 2nd gear still goes at 1100 rpm - only just but it does.
Clutch pedal goes down but is somewhat shy when it comes to coming back up.
Never mind it is safely in the garage and ECP can get me a slave the same day so that will be my weekend task. Hopefully it won't take quite that long.
Rob are you on the end of your mobile this weekend - I may need some help! Hopefully not but we shall see.