Odd starting on my 3.2

[911hillclimber]

My 73T has had this 3.2 in it since 1994 and it is faultless. It has never been apart, maintained to death over the years.

Over all those years I've got used to the way it starts and this 'sound' has never changed unless one of the batteries fails, which has happened twice, once about 10 years ago and second time a month ago.
On one battery the starting 'churn' is labloured, but the engine would fire and run a treat.
Every time.
Hot or cold.

I replaced the dead battery of the pair (about 10 years old) with an identical Bosche silver unit, same rating as the other good one, thus one battery is old, the other new.

Charged the car with my new charger until 'full'.
This was a few days ago.

Came to start the car this morning for a longish run to a local hillclimb.
Turn the key, press the start button ( a mod made about 3 years ago) and the engine churned over with some speed, far quicker than before, but the usual few seconds passed and 4 secs later the engine started, ran perfectly.

It has never delayed to start ever. I never touch the throttle when starting.

Starting from cold again to drive back from deepest Shropshire, the same quick turn-over and the delay to fire was slightly longer, about 5 sec. Ran perfectly.

The only thing to have changed is the battery replacement and the full charge.

I can't see why a fresh battery added, a full car charge (didn't take very long) would lead to a longer than usual time to fire.

I guess the car would not have max volts in the past, but that would make the delay worse?

The engine is about 140K miles, E5 fuel, stock DME Bosch controller.
1000 rpm tick over (as always), 180F engine temp fully warm and certainly on all 6.

Any thoughts?
Will start it again tomorrow to see if it delays again


73T 911

 

[T911UK]

Might be worth "jumping" with a standard bigger battery to see how it reacts (with the 2 smaller ones disconnected)

Maybe you have improved the contacts on the battery/ground while changing them?

 

[911hillclimber]

Thank you for the reply.
The contacts are given a simple wipe/rub with a scotch pad to remove any surface corrosion, but nothing more.

The system had been as fresh as this and as charged-up as this before and the starting 'sound' says the same.
When one of the batteries fails the cranking speed drops to about 50% of the full charged speed but this engine always has fired after a routine delay of about 2 secs, you just get used to this over so many years.

I'll start it again tomorrow with the car now charged by the alternator so normal condition and see if that changes anything.

The only thing changed is a new like-for-like battery and a full charge using my new charger.

Just as an aside, I bought recently some Hella wipers for the car from you and used them yesterday, they are so much better than the Bosch parts, they comform to the curves of the 911 screen so much better.

 

[Motorhead]

I can’t explain what’s causing the issue Graham, but it’s odd that the engine is cranking faster with the new battery, so presumably more current is being drawn by the starter circuit and maybe starving the ignition temporarily? Other than that, perhaps the fuel supply system [pump; carbs] is slower to catch-up with the increased volume of air being drawn in?

Just shooting in the dark really!

Jeff

 

[911hillclimber]

Thanks for the thoughts Jeff.

The 1973 911 had 2 x 12V batteries in parallel to run the car and start it. A few years later the cars had a bigger single battery.
I put the 3.2 engine in the car way back in 1994/5 to go faster on hillclimbs, which worked!

The engine then was a bit slow to churn over, so fitted a high torque starter which is still in the car.

It did make a 'bit' of a difference in cranking speed but the engine fired just the same way.

The initial cranking is only about 5 crank turns and it fires/runs on 6 perfectly. This is very similar to my Boxster.

I like this churn as it starts a bit of oil pressure before the fire.

The last 2 starts have been different, longer (5 secs) churn and then a fire, what I call the delay here. These two starts are after fitting the new second battery a few days ago.

I'm always suspicious when a normal sound/routine suddenly changes on a car, and in an early 911 you can hear EVERYTHING.

The car now should have max volts, max current so should be great, but now this delay. Odd!

 

[T911UK]

It is odd! Thanks for the feedback on the Hella wiper blades, you drive in the rain you crazy fool?

 

[911hillclimber]

I was not actually in the rain, but had a huge fly explode over the windscreen! Wipers cleared it really well.
Did the same today on a run, worked perfectly.

Now, as to my problem.

This morning, 4 days after the last run, came to start the garaged car.

Fast turn-over, NO fire. (after 5 secs).
Switched off and repeated the start, turn over the same but ticked the accelerator pedal and it fired as clean as it ever has.

Drove 35 miles to Shelsley Walsh hillclimb (to watch) and got back to the cooled down car 3 hours later to drive home.
Same result as above.

So the delay has become much worse.

Got home no probs and decided to disconnect the new battery by removing the earth strap from battery to chassis.

The other battery is 12.94V and is 2 years old.
1 hour later and started the car.

Turn over as quick and the engine fired as it has before over the last 30 years!

The battery I removed is at 10.4V after 2 weeks sitting under the bench.

So, I have no idea why getting the system to the best level does this to the firing.

Next step is to fire the engine tomorrow with the new battery disconnected and see what happens.
If that all works, then swap the older battery to the new one and see what happens.

As stated before, the two good batteries are the same spec, same manufacturer, just 2 years apart.

 

[T911UK]

Must be a duff battery, even a 45amp/hr battery fully charged should start a 911

 

[911hillclimber]

The one thing changed in all this is the battery to replace the old one that won't take a charge....
So probably is the culprit.
The engine does start, just not as it used to.
Will have a few tests today, but it is probably the new battery.
I don't hold much hope of getting another back, but worth the try.

 

[911hillclimber]

In deeper trouble now.

Tried to start the engine on the one battery this morning, it is 2 years old.

Turns over quite well, but the engine has now decided not to fire.

Connected up the new battery, so both batteries connected. Slightly quicker turn over but no fire at all.

Thus this problem has escalated from a delayed fire to no fire over 3 starts.

Yesterday it fired and ran normally, today no fire at all.

Have just swopped the DME relay to my spare, no change, no fire.

Put the previous DME relay back in., no fire.

Took the fuel line off the engine bay filter top union, floor of fuel when cranked for a few seconds, so presume the fuel pump is working. No fire.

Cleaned the coil connections, no fire.

Next is the spark check when the wife is ready to help!



I suspect ignition now, no electrics ie batteries

Need to check the ignition switch if there are no sparks.

 

[911hillclimber]

However…

got a plug out, rested against the engine and wife pressed the starter button.

No spark….

wiggled the key in the ignition switch, and it fired!

Now have the ignition switch out and stripped, but looks perfect inside. It is the original 1973 switch.

will reassemble and see if all the position contact correctly turning the key, then back in the car and see if it is reliable.

If not, then will check the starter button and wires.

I installed a starter button a few years ago as an anti thief device.

 

[911hillclimber]

hate wires!

switch back together and into the car.

starter button ( a momentary type) checked for continuity, but can be a bit iffy. Will replace with a decent motorsport one.

All back together, both batteries connected and it started on the button, but not every time, but much better than 24 hours ago.

Must be the ignition switch, as the button only engages the starter motor which works 100%.

New ignition switch is £100, so not too bad even if getting it out/ in the dash is a pain!

 

[911hillclimber]

New ignition switch just ordered from Des911.
Engine turned over this morning, no fire though.

 

[911hillclimber]

Not sure just where I am with this problem.

The new ignition switch arrived from Design911 24 hours after ordering it!



Put it on, car turns over as ever, no firing.

Sigh....

Checked the sparks were there at one plug.

Initially no spark...but then a spark, and then it fired.

Let it run for a few mins to clear it's throat, turned off and it is now cooling down.

Will re-start again later and see what happens.



Thus, we have a new switch (the inside of the original old one looked perfect) and at worse the starting is intermittent, at best it works.



If it is intermittent, what would be the next step?

I've disconnected and reconnected the crank sensors (to clean the contacts) and likewise the car-to-engine multipin plug.



Any suggestions please?

 

[Motorhead]

That’s very disappointing Graham, especially after it looked as though you’d cracked it.

Just out of interest, what’s the spec of the 3.2L engine in the car: electronic ignition presumably, and fuel injection rather than carbs?

The problem does display the hallmark of an intermittent contact in the ignition system or a failing sensor … or both!

Jeff

 

[911hillclimber]

I'm at a loss with it atm Jeff.
Waiting for a light bulb moment...

Engine is stock, Bosch DME etc all standard.
Been as good as gold for 30 years starting EVERY time, then this.

When it starts it runs perfectly and continuously, never misses a beat driving along.

 

[sesame]

Sorry to read you are still tracking down the culprit to your starting problem. It would be worth contacting Charles Marsland, the 3.2 Register Technical Assistant guru to have a chat. Find his details in Porsche Post 911 Carrera 3.2 column. Steve

 

[chas3.2]

Sorry to read you are still tracking down the culprit to your starting problem. It would be worth contacting Charles Marsland, the 3.2 Register Technical Assistant guru to have a chat. Find his details in Porsche Post 911 Carrera 3.2 column. Steve

Sorry to read you are still tracking down the culprit to your starting problem. It would be worth contacting Charles Marsland, the 3.2 Register Technical Assistant guru to have a chat. Find his details in Porsche Post 911 Carrera 3.2 column. Steve

Hi Graham.
Has the crank T D C sensor been change. Also the speed reference sensor. While you’re in there.
have changed a few of these just lately 40 years old. Favourite for no start. In my book.

Charles.

 

[911hillclimber]

Thank you both. Contacting the 3.2 tech man crossed my mind this afternoon.
I changed one of the two sensors many years ago and when the engine was last out about 10 years back removed and cleaned/re-gapped them.

All this has happened only when I replaced one of the car's 2 batteries, it has been a 100% starter for 30 years. Didn't touch anything else!

Another 'feature' now is the oil pressure gauge shows MAX, as in off the top scale with the engine running at any speed.
Kill the engine and the needle falls immediately to Zero.
While the engine runs if I remove the wire off the top of the sensor on the engine the gauge still shows MAX!!

I cannot see why changing the one battery has caused all this.
I refitted the old battery with the existing 2 year old battery and the car still mis-behaves.

Today I have had some engine starts, but nothing as immediate as it used to be.
When it is running it is a smooth as a babies bum, just as it always has been for 30 years. You would think you could run to the south of France.

 

[911hillclimber]

It's getting worse.

Tried to start it lunchtime today, so cold engine. Absolutely no fire just cranking over.

I've cleaned all the earth points etc, but nothing.

Took a plug out to check for a spark (as I've done before) and nothing while cranking the engine over. After several long churns it showed a spark at the plug and fired! It's done this before.

Switched it off, and waited a few minutes, tried to start it again and it fired.

Repeated this a few more times, fired every time.

Not too much of a surprise it re-starts as the engine is all fueled etc ready to go.



I have 2 questions:

Should the fuel pump run when the ignition is switched on, BUT not cranking the engine over?

Or:

Does the pump get 12V only when the engine is cranked over?



When the engine is running the pump is exceptionally quiet, a like a distant bumble bee!

With the ignition on the pump is silent/not running.

Secondly, what would cause the spark not to be there and then spark after several long cranking of the engine?

I'll add that when it does start the engine runs really well.

And I'm going mad about this...