Ok.... now this will be a debate...

[DSCBoy]

Ok, the time of year has arrived where I have to speak to Mr Insurance Man and insure "The Infineon" for 2008 as up until now I sort of rolled it into my prior 911 insurance and I'm a bit worried about the £35k agreed value!

I've canvassed one of our great leaders opinions for a valuation and he feels that we should throw it open for debate given it's a pretty unique car, but I am also aware the economy looks a bit toppy here and I don't really want to encourage the price "cheerleading" that we all have a habit of getting into ;-)

So to recap (/bore those of you who know this already) the car in question, believed to have been built as one of just 7 LHD RS 3.8 C/S but now wearing the chassis plate of an early 964 RS C/S. Paperwork describes it has having been rebuilt into chassis number of the RS 3.8 C/S but as we are aware it is only the chassis plates that moved.

It's not the original colour but has been resprayed and trimmed at great cost with a TTP (who do Gemballas engines) Biturbo 993 motor which at 1 bar pushes 450bhp and 550nm torque.

Now if I was to break up this unique car, I could swap the engine for an original 3.8 RS motor at pretty much zero cost or even cash to me, rip out the interior and hang the rear wing back on it. And I'd have a 3.8 RS with 40,000 km showing on the dash (but wrong chassis number). This is believed to have been wound on to match log book of the acquired VIN so real mileage is nearer 20,000km we think, it's certainly only 10,000km from build in this specification so car is totally immaculate.

Shall we be rude and talk about money? One of the other 6 * 3.8 RS with a "upgraded" motor, 40,000km and a track history has been sat at Thomas' asking Euro 170k for the last 12 months so although I think I could easily get my car to an equivalent spec, given the chassis # issue I think this price may provide an upper limit on my optimism. (Especially given it's not been snapped up yet!). At the bottom end, Tom has a 964 RS rebuilt into a RSR shell that is much lower spec and without the provenance of mine that he want's Euro 80k for...

So this just gives us a Euro 90k range... what do I insure for??? To replace the car, I'd need to buy 1 of the other 6 3.8 RS C/S which would cost me £110k+ then swap the motors (which would probably cost $$$ as well) and then blow a huge amount of money on the interior???
But clearly this value isn't what it's actually worth on the open market as the cost to build was funded by a mad German with no thought for resale value...
Or to get an equivalent car with a similar chassis number I could buy Tom's track nasty 964 RS "widebody" for £55k, and upgrade the wheels, motor and interior but still not have the provenance.

So it's a bit of a toughy... Honest opinions please Gentlemen?

 

[jason]

How much do you want for it if you had to sell it?

Theres your answer.

Car has a more limited sale market I think being a 'bitsa' but is extremely nice in the flesh!

Just imho......

 

[clubsport]

To be fair, you bought the car from Thomas Schmidt, he certainly knows his RS', I don't however re call him being over charitable when it comes to selling his stock (no doubt fair though), I am sure you paid a reasonable price for the car and as you have not had it that long, it is probably worth what you paid for it,,,maybe a little more if you feel comfortable with that....easy []

 

[carreraboy]

The Replacement Value of the Car, what would that be....? i.e as it's unique and you would not find another on the 2nd hand market, what would it cost to build from scratch?

 

[wallonia]

Ask Tom, if he was to sell it, on your behalf, how much he would now, be asking.
As, he now knows the full story and had increasing interest.
Have you improved the Infineon, by sorted out the wheels, tyres and geometry, yet?

Play safe, wear a rubber that fits.
Keep smiling

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

My view is this, two similar (turbo engined c/s) sold earlier this year were advertised at between 35-40k as to what they acheived don't know but I would guess that as being a ball park figure.
One other thought that i suspect has been had before. If (and i can't remember the history now) you could purchase the car that has your chassis plate you could swap them back and you'd have a genuine 3.8RS C/S and a 3.6RS C/S which when re-sold would leave you with a 3.8 RS C/S for very silly money. But I'm sure there is a reason why this won't work somewhere??

 

[DSCBoy]

The problem is as Des points out, what is the replacement cost for a car that is perhaps little more than 12k miles from new on a chassis that porsche only built 7 of... as this is what I'd have to pay out to put it back on the driveway. And it's something silly like £130k I think to build: Interior was Euro 20k+ supposedly, engine Euro 30k on top of standard unit, buying a 964 RS C/S to reshell that has just 20.000km on the clock? Euro 75k? Then a 3.8 RS C/S shell from the factory?? I've no idea? And at the end of it, you'll have a rebodied 964 RS C/S, not one of 7 ever built...

Tom is still sulking I think from agreeing a price with me while we still thought it was a chopped around standard RS C/S so the price we traded at is not really relevant... nor do I really want to trouble him for a valuation just to rub his nose in it.

I am trying to trace the car with my chassis number, but since that is a 3.8RSR built from spares which is now masquerading as a 3.8RS C/S I don't suppose the owner will want to sell me the chassis plates and lose £40k-£60k off the value of his car cheaply... nor do I have the cash to lift a pretend 3.8 RS C/S if they all come at Euro 170k!
I am not sure I would part with the car so my price to sell is biased... so thus is the dilemma to insure at rebuild cost (£130k) which would be silly, offer I couldn't refuse cost (£100k?) or price it would acheive if I put it on the market tomorrow and waited for the right buyer, or put it on the market tomorrow and smacked the nearest bid?? Which is where you guys come in.... In this market, what is the car worth?

Jason, had all the geometry done, but couldn't bring myself to throw away a brand new (8 yr old) set of Pirellis yet and worried about tyre fitters scratching the rims (!).... so resolved to not drive in the rain for a while ;-)

 

[smallspeed]

My brother in law works in car insurance, and I spoke to him quickly about this at lunchtime.. He said he recommends people with agreed valuation policies to put a price on the car which they can (a) substantiate (sp?) and (b) would allow them to replace the car should the unthinkable happen

He stated that agreed valuation is exactly that; if you have a beetle and insure it and say its worth £4k the insurance company will ask for photos and be happy (provided it isn't fred flinstone spec if you know what I mean [] ). If you say I have a 15yr old porsche and its worth £130k, they will ask for pictures and then say we think its worth 70 in the current climate (ie low mileage RS plus a bit for the other things like widebody and engine). The onus is then on you to prove its worth more, or accept 70k..

In your situation with (presumably) documentation for the engine work, interior, respray, re-shell, etc, and the back-up of the club in terms of confirming what this car is, I dont think you will have a problem making a case for yourself.. At the end of the day if your car goes missing/gets destroyed, you are looking to purchase 1 of 6 in the world.. ..not 7..

Personally I would make a call on the value of the other 6 cars, make a call on total cost to "build another" (for want of a better phrase) and then pick the higher of the two.. I dont think you will have any trouble justifying the pricetag to the insurance company if you have the information to back it up, and you would regret underselling yourself/your car should the unthinkable happen..

ben

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

legally at present your car is a modified 964 RS c/s. Without the chassis number it can't be anything else. The modifications are just that, mods. I doubt very much i could persuade my insurance company that my car is worth more coz i've fitted some expensive KW's on it. So technically it's actually 1 of 120 or whatever Des reckons the figure is! Your only documented proof that the car is a 3.8 RS C/S is the production numbers assuming they are still there. From what you tell us very little of what the car was remains. Collector's would not want a car with non matching numbers, less still one with few original parts. So as a bare shell it has a worth but bought for that purpose it becomes difficult. Who would buy it. Bought to repair a damaged car maybe but a 3.6 c/s would be just as good for that purpose. Pesonally I see it's worth as what it is rather than what it could be. If you had the magic chassis plate things would be considerably different. Just imho

 

[Damen]

IMHO, somewhere between £45 - 50K.

I think your best approach is to get Thomas to provide you with a letter confirming what he considers to be the market value of the car. That letter together with some photos should get your car insured with an "agreed valuation".

Best of luck.

Damen

 

[ChrisW]

The danger is that somebody may be seen to have tried to create two very expensive cars out of one.

The original 3.8CS going to a 3.6CS chassis number --- but visibly a 3.8 wide bodied car, and the 3.8CS chassis number being donated to a second car in order to do what ?

The only thing that makes a car real, is it's matching numbers. Otherwise C2's could be converted into RS CS's on a regular basis.

As to value, it's worth what somebody will pay for what it is, and that is the sum of it's parts. As it stands, to me, it is not a whole.

Without wishing to bore I had a 993C2 with the X51 3.8 engine --- essentailly a '64 3.8RS engine bar a few induction buts and cams. It had the low ratio G50 box, LSD, single mass flywheel, good history, -- LHD --- plus lot of goodies, a really unique car, and I struggled and struggled to get £23k for it.

 

[Melv]

For gawds sake m8, bin those tyres!!!

They are WAY past their sell by........

 

[DSCBoy]

Chris, you do have a point, and basically someone out there is driving around in a RSR race car that was built from a factory shell as a bitsa that is basically a fake 3.8 RS C/S...

Lawrence, appreciate you didn't get to see the car at Ragley so it's tough to tell from my description, but apart from chassis plate (big apart I admit), a bit of leather/carpet that could be easily ripped out and an engine swap that would PAY me money apparently the car is just a coat of paint from being 1 of 7 of a car that is fetching over £100k (even with non matching engine/chassis numbers)... and its an extremely low mileage version of one of those... and the documents basically back that up.

Ran my insurance boys thru it and they want me to insure for cost to purchase 1 of the other 6 PLUS the cost of putting in interior and swapping engine. I.e Around £140k and of course pay a whacking great premium with it... but I've argued that I would feel that realistically if I could get a matching numbers 3.8 RS C/S for £110k (which should still be possible I think) and I would be happy with that on the driveway given its easier resale potential, that we should compromise on that number. Especially as what I've not told you upto this point (to avoid influencing the discussion as I wanted honest opinions) I have had an official valuation and a bid from a local expert both at the £80k mark. So insurance boys have agreed to meet me in the middle.

Mel, the tyres are the originals from the day it was built up in this specification, I can't just throw them out... they are mentioned on the german documents and basically back up the total lack of mileage for the car... plus it's been a couple of weeks since the car scared me and she's laid up for the winter now making the tyres square... I'm going to look at getting another set of wheels and put some fresh tyres on those in the Spring so I don't panic about the "speedline for Porsche" being scratched by some Gauloise puffing French tyre fitter!

Cheers for all your help/opinions boys.

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Is it's still on it's RSR suspension, has it's original front bonnet and you can lay your hands on the original rear wing and still has the alloy doors? when you say you can swap the engine do you mean for a 3.8 RSR engine with engine production number ?

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

I have given this a fair bit more thought and tried to think of a similar senario. Nearest thing i can think of is the Ruf CTR as your all i'm sure aware the first batch of those were built on Ruf chassis numbers later batches of the cars appeared on Porsche chassis numbers as these cars were built from donors, though it was blatantly obvious that these cars were still hand built CTR's built at the Ruf factory with documents to prove. So despite the apparent different chassis number the cars still fetch a high premium although not quite as high a Ruf Vin car they are close. This I think starts to put your car in a different light for me. And value wise starts to move it closer to the 3.8RSR that it is, if not in Vin. This to me clarifies your local experts view of the valuation.

 

[clubsport]

Do you really think you had Thomas over on this and he sold the car for way under it's value?....This car was available for sale for some time, I would expect him to have done his research on the car......this whole chasis plate thing really doesn't make sense to me at all,,even with all the prices flying around at the moment to insure a car for £100k above it's purchase price,,,,surely the temptation must be there to cash in????
I recall the 1988/9 930 Turbo SE were something like £130k new back then, the ones which come up for sale of late seem to be worth about £50k....to make one from scratch would cost a lot more £££, clearly the market decides the value?

 

[TISPKJ]

Mate take the 80 big ones !!

Then buy a mk1 GT3 for weekend fun and trackdays,and a 996 turbo for the wife to enjoy and for your trips to the office.

 

[SimonExtreme]

I am sorry to say that this thread really makes me feel uncomfortable. The debate of what makes a car is as old as the collectors car movement. The idea that a chassis plate, engine or chassis alone makes a car is seriously flawed. The idea that if you put a 3.8 RS engine in the car you would have a 3.8 RS isn't correct. For starters, the history would say that the chassis has an unknown history and engine came from another car. Even if you managed to get a chassis plate, all that would be is a chassis of unknown history, with an engine from another car and a plate from yet another. That makes it worth significantly less than an original.

The thing that makes a car is its history. You might well have a very valuable car, if you can trace its history accurately. Until you can do that, you have exactly what you describe - a car that might be built on a 3.8 C/S chassis that somebody has fixed a 3.6RS C/S, that somebody else has fitted an incorrect engine and which has been repainted and retrimmed. In fact, it could be anything. I think you bought it for the right price and that is what it is worth However if you can get some proper proof of its history, that value might change. I suspect that the history you need is rather deeply hidden, because I bet that if it was easy to find Tom would have dug it up and

In the mean time, you have a great car I wouldn't mind in my garage and enjoy it for what it is.

 

[lee fulford]

I'm with Simon on this.

The car is an awesome piece of kit and I car I would dearly fancy.....but anything that has a history like that with dodgy chassis numbers and different engines etc would not make the money to a serious collector and that's what collectors want and they drive prices....It's a bitsa.....sorry.

Can't liken it to RUF in my opinion Laurence. RUF are properly documented articles.

 

[RSGulp]

Not much help to your insurance valuation dilemma Rick, but the only way to discover the true value of any 'one off' or 'special' car is to put it on the market - the price at which the next owner purchases your car is it's true value, and really only at that specific moment.

Similarly with 'individual' or 'architect-designed' houses, the market dictates the value. Knowing where to pitch the asking price to attract the right money is difficult.

You say the car is believed to be one of 7 lhd RS 3.8 C/S's, is there any way you can trace more of the cars history to substantiate the claim, or contact the owner/company who did the conversion to it's current state?

Might be sensible to pitch the insurance valuation about a third to halfway between what you paid for the car, and what a matching numbers RS 3.8 C/S might fetch - that is until you can get some documentation which proves it's provenance. Even then, as I'm sure you know, the car won't be worth the same as the equivalent matching numbers RS 3.8 C/S.

Still, a really great car which I would love to have in my garage.
As they say, "It's a nice problem to have." []