Paint your car for 70 quid pro style !
- Thread starter Guest
- Start date
sawood12
New member
Well anything is possible, it all boils down to operator skill and how much time you can spend continually fixing errors until in all liklihood through luck than judgement you stumble upon a satisfactory result. If you manage to do a visually satisfactory job then all power to you. However my modest exploits into body work and paint jobs has told me there is more to this than meets the eye. My efforts all looked perfectly fine cosmetically for about 6 months. Then the rust came back or the paint went milky etc. Paints absorb moisture, that is why you need a carefully controlled environment to apply them or you just trap moisture in the paint which will eventually cause rust. Two-pack paints are reactive so work differently and are easier to apply so suit the DIY sprayer, however I believe these are now illegal - which is a shame because the produce a much tougher finish that resists stone chips better.
There are alot of dodgy body shops out there and these are guys using the proper equipment, so having the proper equipment is still no guarantee of success.
There are alot of dodgy body shops out there and these are guys using the proper equipment, so having the proper equipment is still no guarantee of success.
Indi9xx
New member
I was involved in my first spray job when I was about 9 years old and my last official one was 8 years ago (Except one for a friend about 3 years ago which had my wife screaming at me! more on that later..)
When I was about 22 I was formally trained in my own time by a guy called Demitri Polycarpo who is regarded in the middle east by the royals as one of the best painters in the world... As an example, almost every Ferrari, lamborghini and Porsche that the Sultan buys, he repaints before its ever entered into the collection.
Anyway, he had a phrase along the lines of.... "If you can hold a hose pipe and water your garden, you can paint a car...it may need work to get the finish great after painting it... But it is possible. A great painter is someone who knows when a car is ready to paint and gets a from the gun finish close to that great finish without too much work after the car is painted."
Every word of this is true... First if the prep work under the paint is good, no matter what you do when you apply the paint, it can all be made to look great.. brush, roller, Devlibis GTi spray gun, whatever you use.. and however many runs you end up with, it can all be sorted out.
With a pro, your paying for his abilities, materials, premesis, vast amount of electricity the spray booth/oven will consume and other costs.
Also some pro's will not be aware, or may choose to forget, but a professional painter is really risking his health with every car he paints no matter how much he invests in safety equipment.
Aqua/waterbase paints are indeed water based, but they are just a base coat, and as far as I know, the primers and clears (without a clear coat, even guards red will wash off the panel) are still containing poisonous compounds which attack the lungs and central nervous system.... So there is a little bit of "danger money" involved.
The reason I stopped painting cars for fun or reward all those years ago is because I got to the point where for days after a paint job I would cough up large amounts of blood and have hand tremours! (Which is why my wife screamed at me when she found out I had painted the last "unofficial" paint job I performed!)... It was my own fault... like some crazy elitist painters (not that I would class myself as one), I did not used to use a mask or air fed visor... the problem being that a mask or resporator is uncomfortable, distracting and collects condensation which can drip into a wet bonnet or roof... the problem with an air fed mask, it obscures your vision..... But even with these items, your not immune to death or health issues... evaporating hardners in the air can even get absorbed through the skin or tear ducts.
As mad as it might sound, the legacy of my painting lives with me even today... if I get a cold, it becomes a chest infection very quickly and on several occasions has then quickly become pluracy and a short stay in hospital.. The other strange thing is if I walk into a spray booth where a car has recently been painted, i instantly get a case of the hick-ups, which is apparently quite common in retired painters and a result of nervous system damage and your bodies responce to the toxins.
With using "unusual" paints on cars... I have done my fair share of experiments....
One experiment was a rusty old mini that was laying in a friends driveway.... Due to a moment of madness, my friend and I decided to have a challenge of turning this wreck into something which looked amazing for a minimum amount of cash... As a result, we spent several evenings sorting out the rust and dents, then several more evenings getting the car ready for paint... Priming it, ghost coating it, wet flatting it, rectifying scratches and low spots, then more priming and this process over and over again... Once "ready" for paint, we decided it would be fun to paint it in dulux white oil based gloss paint (not the non drip gloss type) and used celulose thinners to thin it for spraying and a few drips of "blackfriers driers" to get it to harden quickly and so avoid it collecting dust and insects while it dried... as an old sprayer trick, as we completed the paint job, we thinned down the paint mix more and more until eventually we were spraying neat thinners quickly over the car as it dried, which reduces orange peal and helps the paint stabilise.
Once finished, this car looked absolutely stunning.... we painted the wiper arms, door handles and even the bumpers with a can of satin black, with two black stick on cooper stripes on the bonnet (B&Q black sticky back plastic cut to size!) and some black piping for the roof gutter... He ended up using the car as a spare car for about 3 years after that and the only way the paintjob went down hill was towards the end of the 3 years the paint began to yellow slightly... But it did mean that about £20 worth of primer, £10 worth of flatting paper, £20 on dulux gloss, £5 worth of thinners and a £5 can of satin black (maybe £20 in things like the sticky back plastic and masking tape) converted an old shed into what looked like a restored car.
However... I estimate, this fun project probably took at least 100 man hours of prep alone, followed by about 30 mins of actual spraying.... So at even £40 per hour, that is still £4000 in labour! Using high quality car materials from people like PPG would have cost around £200... which in the grand scheme of £4000 labour, the £140 difference in in materials between B&Q versus PPG for paint etc is not worth it.
Back "the old days" all cars were painted with coach paint, which I am told is very close to "household gloss paint"... and more often than not, these cars were hand painted with brushes my skilled craftsmen or in some case, they used rollers!
So in balance, I would say that you can get away with using some unusual paints to paint a car, and i can see that you could get a really good finish from a roller, but I am not sure I would do it to a Porsche
)
When I was about 22 I was formally trained in my own time by a guy called Demitri Polycarpo who is regarded in the middle east by the royals as one of the best painters in the world... As an example, almost every Ferrari, lamborghini and Porsche that the Sultan buys, he repaints before its ever entered into the collection.
Anyway, he had a phrase along the lines of.... "If you can hold a hose pipe and water your garden, you can paint a car...it may need work to get the finish great after painting it... But it is possible. A great painter is someone who knows when a car is ready to paint and gets a from the gun finish close to that great finish without too much work after the car is painted."
Every word of this is true... First if the prep work under the paint is good, no matter what you do when you apply the paint, it can all be made to look great.. brush, roller, Devlibis GTi spray gun, whatever you use.. and however many runs you end up with, it can all be sorted out.
With a pro, your paying for his abilities, materials, premesis, vast amount of electricity the spray booth/oven will consume and other costs.
Also some pro's will not be aware, or may choose to forget, but a professional painter is really risking his health with every car he paints no matter how much he invests in safety equipment.
Aqua/waterbase paints are indeed water based, but they are just a base coat, and as far as I know, the primers and clears (without a clear coat, even guards red will wash off the panel) are still containing poisonous compounds which attack the lungs and central nervous system.... So there is a little bit of "danger money" involved.
The reason I stopped painting cars for fun or reward all those years ago is because I got to the point where for days after a paint job I would cough up large amounts of blood and have hand tremours! (Which is why my wife screamed at me when she found out I had painted the last "unofficial" paint job I performed!)... It was my own fault... like some crazy elitist painters (not that I would class myself as one), I did not used to use a mask or air fed visor... the problem being that a mask or resporator is uncomfortable, distracting and collects condensation which can drip into a wet bonnet or roof... the problem with an air fed mask, it obscures your vision..... But even with these items, your not immune to death or health issues... evaporating hardners in the air can even get absorbed through the skin or tear ducts.
As mad as it might sound, the legacy of my painting lives with me even today... if I get a cold, it becomes a chest infection very quickly and on several occasions has then quickly become pluracy and a short stay in hospital.. The other strange thing is if I walk into a spray booth where a car has recently been painted, i instantly get a case of the hick-ups, which is apparently quite common in retired painters and a result of nervous system damage and your bodies responce to the toxins.
With using "unusual" paints on cars... I have done my fair share of experiments....
One experiment was a rusty old mini that was laying in a friends driveway.... Due to a moment of madness, my friend and I decided to have a challenge of turning this wreck into something which looked amazing for a minimum amount of cash... As a result, we spent several evenings sorting out the rust and dents, then several more evenings getting the car ready for paint... Priming it, ghost coating it, wet flatting it, rectifying scratches and low spots, then more priming and this process over and over again... Once "ready" for paint, we decided it would be fun to paint it in dulux white oil based gloss paint (not the non drip gloss type) and used celulose thinners to thin it for spraying and a few drips of "blackfriers driers" to get it to harden quickly and so avoid it collecting dust and insects while it dried... as an old sprayer trick, as we completed the paint job, we thinned down the paint mix more and more until eventually we were spraying neat thinners quickly over the car as it dried, which reduces orange peal and helps the paint stabilise.
Once finished, this car looked absolutely stunning.... we painted the wiper arms, door handles and even the bumpers with a can of satin black, with two black stick on cooper stripes on the bonnet (B&Q black sticky back plastic cut to size!) and some black piping for the roof gutter... He ended up using the car as a spare car for about 3 years after that and the only way the paintjob went down hill was towards the end of the 3 years the paint began to yellow slightly... But it did mean that about £20 worth of primer, £10 worth of flatting paper, £20 on dulux gloss, £5 worth of thinners and a £5 can of satin black (maybe £20 in things like the sticky back plastic and masking tape) converted an old shed into what looked like a restored car.
However... I estimate, this fun project probably took at least 100 man hours of prep alone, followed by about 30 mins of actual spraying.... So at even £40 per hour, that is still £4000 in labour! Using high quality car materials from people like PPG would have cost around £200... which in the grand scheme of £4000 labour, the £140 difference in in materials between B&Q versus PPG for paint etc is not worth it.
Back "the old days" all cars were painted with coach paint, which I am told is very close to "household gloss paint"... and more often than not, these cars were hand painted with brushes my skilled craftsmen or in some case, they used rollers!
So in balance, I would say that you can get away with using some unusual paints to paint a car, and i can see that you could get a really good finish from a roller, but I am not sure I would do it to a Porsche
)
On one occasion I used a brush on primer and a spray can top coat. It looked fabulous when I went to bed, having just applied the top coat.
Unfortunately, during the night, the two paints reacted with each other and produced an amazing crackel/leather look finish.....which didn't harden at all. The only way to remove it was to trowel it off with a scraper.
Unfortunately, during the night, the two paints reacted with each other and produced an amazing crackel/leather look finish.....which didn't harden at all. The only way to remove it was to trowel it off with a scraper.
Hilux
New member
A mate of mine painted a car in an old shed/garage.
The garage had vertical boards butted together as cladding.
These had shrunk/warped so gaps formed.
It was windy and cold. If you`ve never let newly sprayed paint get too cold then I`ll tell you that it `blooms` (turns whitish)
His newly painted black car looked like a Zebra the next morning, he was gutted of course.
Me? ...............................it made oi larf it did (behind his back of course)
The garage had vertical boards butted together as cladding.
These had shrunk/warped so gaps formed.
It was windy and cold. If you`ve never let newly sprayed paint get too cold then I`ll tell you that it `blooms` (turns whitish)
His newly painted black car looked like a Zebra the next morning, he was gutted of course.
Me? ...............................it made oi larf it did (behind his back of course)
Guest
New member
Jon, it was great to hear your experiences, takes me back a while. As some of you know I used to own a couple of restoration shops. One in the south and one in the East Midlands. Painters are a strange old breed, most of them develop nervous system failures over the years.
Remember that we have been using acrylic based paints on cars since the early 70's when Nitro Celulose was phased out. We then ended up with all kinds of paints from the TPA's used on most british stuff, does anybody remember Permabel paint? And other variables. Back then paint was applied under high pressure to get the paint flowing. As a result most of the paint went into the atmosphere and not onto the panel (not great for the lungs or bronchial system). You could get a really glassy gun finsih though by increasing the thinners to solids ratios as Jon said.
In the 1980's we started getting more 2 pack based paints, I remember in the mid 80's getting my first 2 pack ICI 2K paint system. To help the paint flow all manufacturers put Cyanide in the paint. It is only a small part composition but still over a period of time poisons the central nervous system. The other risk is through the skin as it is carciogenic (Cancer Causing) and therefore gloves should always be worn when mixing. Up until last year when water based paints started coming through, this was the only option.
In the laste 1990's we started to get more technology within the spray guns and as a result a lot of painters went on to HVLP (High Volume Low Pressure) The result of this is less overspay and more paint on the panel. Therefore where painters used to mix a minimum of half a litre of paint for a repair now they could mix as little as a tenth of a litre for a single /double panel repair with blends. This is the same process that is utilised with the high solid water based paints of today.
Neil, I must pick you up on something. You would never use more than 10-12 litres of paint to paint a car even in the Nitro Cellulose era when it was paint 4 coats then flat, paint 3 then flat, another 3 then flat and a couple of thinner coats to finish before compound (Rolls Royce used to paint 16 coats). Today for a total repaint you would not use more than 2-3 litres of Base and a couple of litres of Lacquer. Paint is mighty expensive though, some Glasurit paints are now £100 per litre!!
Again though you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, if the prep work is poor the final job will be poor. Keep away from high build primers (full of pourus materials) and use as little bodyfiller as you can get away with as it shrinks.
To be honest, if you can get a good repaint for under £3000 you are getting a bargain. I have a car being painted at the moment and even with contacts and favours being pulled it is costing me £5k
pauljmcnulty
Active member
John - that's called "cracklure". It's a tecnique used for antique paint effects, and used a lot by a young expert called Kevin McCloud before he went all poncy. [
]I'm surprised you didn't leave it on, but I suppose the wood veneer is more to your taste? [
]Neil Haughey
New member
ISTR he was talking about the total quantity of materials rather then colour adding up to 60 litres and was probably including waxoil / underseal. I now he was never going to have much of a career as a sprayer / panel beater because he is to much of a perfectionist and just doesn't have the 'get it out the door' attitude. I think the 60 litres number was from his own car, this certainly became an issue where he used to work because he was using their facilities.
As I side note what is your opinion with regards to blow overs? Some ppl I know have had very effective blow over resprays to several panels for a total cost of maybe a few hundred pounds but I have previously been warned of this approach.
Also related but what about those Earlex (is this the name ??) spray stations you see in catalogues for maybe 100 quid? Seems a cheap way to get spraying at home.
As I side note what is your opinion with regards to blow overs? Some ppl I know have had very effective blow over resprays to several panels for a total cost of maybe a few hundred pounds but I have previously been warned of this approach.
Also related but what about those Earlex (is this the name ??) spray stations you see in catalogues for maybe 100 quid? Seems a cheap way to get spraying at home.
Guest
New member
Hi Neil,
60 litres probably included filling the petrol tank!!
With regards to blow overs. It depends on what the base is like. If the panel work is in good order and the lacquer is looking past its best or starting to rub through it is not a problem. The trouble is usually blow overs are to cover up a multitude of sins before a a sale to a usually unsuspecting new owner. If your panel work is lacking lustre and a good compounding does not get it back then there is no harm refinishing over the top of the current paint.
Take advice on this though, as if there is already a large quantity of paint on the panel this can cause cracks once the paints settle.
Regarding paint stations like Earlex/Sealy etc etc. I personally do not rate them. Think about the media you are spraying first, paint products are expensive!
Just as food for thought, in a fully equipped paintshop you will have an air compressor which takes in filtered air, the air is then dried through what is effectively a refrigeration plant. It is then temperature regulated before it gets to the gun. Then there is the paint gun itself. Most pro's prefer a gravity feed gun that is designed for high solids paints to be delivered and atomised under low pressure. This involves a lot of air flow from a large efficient compressor (usually a hydrovane)!!! Then consider the paints are designed for this type of environment Another thing worth considering is most modern paints really need baking to cure properly. You can get air dry thinners/hardeners/activators but it will comprimise the paint to a small extent.
Really the only paint that can be effectively applied at home with the exception of certain acrylics is Nitro Cellulose as it air dries over a period of weeks and can be easily rubbed and polished by hand to a great finish.
On a seperate subject a couple of years ago i had a few cars refinished by a ford main agent to a show winning standard and at a good price. Due to the way paint is applied at the factory (almost orange peel) the main agent painters have to replicate this finish. As a result most of them are actually great painters but looking for a good job to show off their skills without the horrible factory finish.
60 litres probably included filling the petrol tank!!
With regards to blow overs. It depends on what the base is like. If the panel work is in good order and the lacquer is looking past its best or starting to rub through it is not a problem. The trouble is usually blow overs are to cover up a multitude of sins before a a sale to a usually unsuspecting new owner. If your panel work is lacking lustre and a good compounding does not get it back then there is no harm refinishing over the top of the current paint.
Take advice on this though, as if there is already a large quantity of paint on the panel this can cause cracks once the paints settle.
Regarding paint stations like Earlex/Sealy etc etc. I personally do not rate them. Think about the media you are spraying first, paint products are expensive!
Just as food for thought, in a fully equipped paintshop you will have an air compressor which takes in filtered air, the air is then dried through what is effectively a refrigeration plant. It is then temperature regulated before it gets to the gun. Then there is the paint gun itself. Most pro's prefer a gravity feed gun that is designed for high solids paints to be delivered and atomised under low pressure. This involves a lot of air flow from a large efficient compressor (usually a hydrovane)!!! Then consider the paints are designed for this type of environment Another thing worth considering is most modern paints really need baking to cure properly. You can get air dry thinners/hardeners/activators but it will comprimise the paint to a small extent.
Really the only paint that can be effectively applied at home with the exception of certain acrylics is Nitro Cellulose as it air dries over a period of weeks and can be easily rubbed and polished by hand to a great finish.
On a seperate subject a couple of years ago i had a few cars refinished by a ford main agent to a show winning standard and at a good price. Due to the way paint is applied at the factory (almost orange peel) the main agent painters have to replicate this finish. As a result most of them are actually great painters but looking for a good job to show off their skills without the horrible factory finish.
Neil Haughey
New member
On my own car IMHO it needs fresh paint on the bonnet, and probably the doors because it is so thin (to scared to polish anymore on there), and of course the front of the car because of the hundreds of chips. Maybe a blow over would work for me.
I have a rotary polisher which I have used to good effect on most of the car except one rear quarter and the roof, I learned the lesson of how you can mess up a car using a cheapo halfords polisher which covered my car in swirls a couple of years ago. On the bonnet for example I got rid of maybe 70% of the swirls / scratches / spidering etc. but this hasn't brought the colour back. It looks darker then the red on the sides of the car for example. I think the heat from the engine has baked the paint on the bonnet because it was incredibly hard to polish. It took a lot of passes with the machine to break the polish down (G10 to finish) much more so then on the sides of the car. G10 seems to work well on my car but G3 not so good because it dries to quick, I keep adding water but it doesn't break down well and makes a right mess. I might try a menzerna polish inplace of the G3 but really like the G10.
Interestingly the only panel with orange peel is the only panel with paint younger then 8 years, one rear quarter was resprayed a couple of years ago and looked great until maybe 6 months ago.
I have a rotary polisher which I have used to good effect on most of the car except one rear quarter and the roof, I learned the lesson of how you can mess up a car using a cheapo halfords polisher which covered my car in swirls a couple of years ago. On the bonnet for example I got rid of maybe 70% of the swirls / scratches / spidering etc. but this hasn't brought the colour back. It looks darker then the red on the sides of the car for example. I think the heat from the engine has baked the paint on the bonnet because it was incredibly hard to polish. It took a lot of passes with the machine to break the polish down (G10 to finish) much more so then on the sides of the car. G10 seems to work well on my car but G3 not so good because it dries to quick, I keep adding water but it doesn't break down well and makes a right mess. I might try a menzerna polish inplace of the G3 but really like the G10.
Interestingly the only panel with orange peel is the only panel with paint younger then 8 years, one rear quarter was resprayed a couple of years ago and looked great until maybe 6 months ago.
Posts made and opinions expressed are those of the individual forum members
Use of the Forum is subject to the Terms and Conditions
