Porsche R&D officials suspended

[PSH]

Well I guess we all saw this coming being that Porsche is part of the VAG group...Audi officials too...So i wonder what will be the end result for diesels across the globe with many so called experts saying there could be an outright ban...personally they should have been banned many years ago as they are really bad for our health, far more dangerous than an old V8 petrol guzzler with knackered rings could ever be. In 5 years time Paris will put in place an outright ban on all diesel cars in the city, London is very likely to follow(as an interim measure already has plans to double the congestion charge for diesels) along with other major cities soon after. I wonder just how far this will go, what will they do about haulage which must be nearly all diesel powered? Will more be spent on cleaner petrol or will we see more hybrid or even all electric HGV's.....we already have electric buses so who knows?..The next question would be 'how many of today's car manufacturers will survive this... now there's a question?

thoughts to ponder on this bright sunny Monday morning...glad i drive a classic...well for now until they get banned too....at least it's not diesel so hopefully will be last on the list.....

Pete

 

[PSH]

so Audi have now admitted to 2.1 million of their cars being fitted with the 'emission defeat' software...cars effected are A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, TT Q3 and Q5.....bad boys... ...who's next I wonder?

 

[Waylander]

think the VAG goup cars are going to flood the secondhand market

 

[John Sims]

I started another thread - if only Porsche had polished their crystal ball VW would probably have been delighted if they bought them now.

I agree that installing software to make engines run lean when tested is pretty much fraud but let's not demonize all oil burners.

 

[PSH]

I started another thread - if only Porsche had polished their crystal ball VW would probably have been delighted if they bought them now.

I agree that installing software to make engines run lean when tested is pretty much fraud but let's not demonize all oil burners.

not all John....just the diesels...horrible smelly things....

 

[944Scott]

This is a whole can of worms that is yet to be fully opened and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't stop at German cars.

 

[MJB]

This is a whole can of worms that is yet to be fully opened and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't stop at German cars.

I'm sure that you're right. Having been professionally involved with cars since before petrol and diesel emissions testing was introduced I have spent the subsequent years watching manufacturers jump through legislative hoops with their new cars and then witnessed the reality of how successuful (or otherwise) their emissions controls are during the lives of vehicles. This is a huge and often complicated subject (Diesel Particulate Filters, anyone?) and the fact that VW appear to have decided that the only way in which they could meet the ever-stricter standards for some engines was to circumnavigate them shows just how impossible it can sometimes be in economic and/or engineering terms.

Aside from meeting legislatative criteria, in Britain sales are influenced by emissions-related car tax and only recently a salesman was saying to me that he was surprised that certain VW engines had changed from the higher to the lower tax brackets. I guess that we all now know why! Having spent years of dealing with the reality of various emission controls, this situation may at least have the benefit of highlighting the problems of vehicles emissions and how best they are tackled in terms that can be acheived within realistic timescales and costs.

 

[PSH]

latest news is that there will be a general recall of 11 million cars VW, Audi and Porsche to update their software to a legal emissions limit and this they plan to get done over just a few days????? If I owned a car that was recalled my first question would be 'do i loose power'? I bet in some instances the answer would be yes! Whatever the new software sets it's emissions too I bet they will play safe and make them ultra clean especially as the worlds governments will now be looking at independent tests, the UK has already said so. Therefore my question about power is likely to be 'yes' to all cars so effected....we shall see..
I suspect that tests for the future will not only be very tough but also look at a wider range in both speed and hours the engine has run....it's all very well having a brand new diesel that scrapes through the emission test when new but you test the same car after a few days driving and it will not be such a pretty picture , diesels get dirty very quick hence why their service costs are so much higher than petrol or are they cheating in regards to stated service intervals too?

Pete

 

[Waylander]

if that's the case and engine power is cut dramatically to meet emissions standards, then does that not then mean that you were sold your car with gross misrepresentation, not fit for the purpose you bought if for.

in law I am sure you would be able to get a refund if your car is still in warranty.... unlikely that will ever happen, but as an owner of a 2013 A4 I think I would be wanting some kind of compensation for the loss in value of my car.

I really don't think that after this the trade in value will be even close to what I would have expected without this farce

 

[944Scott]

if that's the case and engine power is cut dramatically to meet emissions standards, then does that not then mean that you were sold your car with gross misrepresentation, not fit for the purpose you bought if for.

in law I am sure you would be able to get a refund if your car is still in warranty.... unlikely that will ever happen, but as an owner of a 2013 A4 I think I would be wanting some kind of compensation for the loss in value of my car.

I really don't think that after this the trade in value will be even close to what I would have expected without this farce

Some good points have been raised and Waylander is bang on the money with the can of worms I was referring too, imagine trying to tow and your car is now a gutless wonder.

Did I hear on the radio that Skoda is now involved too?

 

[PSH]

if that's the case and engine power is cut dramatically to meet emissions standards, then does that not then mean that you were sold your car with gross misrepresentation, not fit for the purpose you bought if for.

in law I am sure you would be able to get a refund if your car is still in warranty.... unlikely that will ever happen, but as an owner of a 2013 A4 I think I would be wanting some kind of compensation for the loss in value of my car.

I really don't think that after this the trade in value will be even close to what I would have expected without this farce

Some good points have been raised and Waylander is bang on the money with the can of worms I was referring too, imagine trying to tow and your car is now a gutless wonder.

Did I hear on the radio that Skoda is now involved too?

I would expect Skoda to be on the list...cars in the VW group are Audi, Bentley,Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Skoda and of course VW..they also have Ducati bikes but I don't think they have diesels.... The media has been discussing the effect on trade in values but far to early to give any figures...last I heard VW group had lost over 40% of it's value and that's before any lawsuits...values will most likely take a hit but by how much? that's the question everyone wants to know.

 

[PSH]

So the official numbers have been released by VW..nearly 1.2 million UK cars and some lorries to be recalled possibly by the end of October....seems the new software needs to be tested by the regulators first before VW are allowed to do the work, which btw the government is going to get tougher on these regulations for the future,,,interesting times ahead or not....evidently the present emissions on these cars are polluting the atmosphere by between 15 to 40 times more than allowed? You can bet that all manufacturers will be under the spotlight from now on.....I can see diesels having a hard time until this is sorted or perhaps they are banned outright.....who knows?...we shall see...

Pete

 

[alastairp]

Will the recall be compulsory?

What if I am quite happy with the current performance (emissions, fuel consumption and acceleration) of my wife's 2010 VW Golf 2.0 TDI GT which we have owned from new - can I ignore the recall?

I don't fancy a recall that will make my car perform at a lower level than at the moment.

 

[PSH]

now that's a good question...don't know..I would expect so as there are road tax bands to consider when talking emissions....there's going to be a hell of a lot of fallout that's for sure... guess we'll all know soon enough...

 

[vitesse]

The fact is that modern diesels are extremely powerful & efficient & in general,I don't think current owners generally complain about their performance or fuel consumption when they compare their cars with alternatives with petrol /non-turbo engines unless "third world " less developed engines.
They pass MOT's or equivalents & don't "smoke " when being driven unless heavily "chipped"-even my 231,000plus mile 530D still doesn't emit smoke according to my rear view mirror or reports from my son if following me.

Yes it may be fraud & results in less road tax based on the emissions testing,but the cars appear to do "what it says on the tin"-Porsche's diesel versions seem always more powerful ,so must have more electronic tweaks-but do I hear anyone complaining-rather the opposite from comments on here.

When you think that VW Golfs start as a TDI with 1 power level & end up as TDI(with a red "I"),at a much more significant power level,& yet still pass MOT's ,there has got to have been some reason for it apart from turbochargers & valve tweaks etc.

 

[PSH]

I think we've missing the big picture here...smoke isn't the issue..you can have a brand new lowest of low emission diesel engine and it will be significantly more dangerous to our health than any substance produced from other types of motor vehicle engine. Diesel really is a killer and the reason why so much regulation across the world has been set in an attempt to combat this health risk. They say that 23k in this country die each year due to inhaling diesel exhaust particles, compare that to road accident deaths and you get an idea of why the world's governments are trying to control this problem,,,in years to come diesels will be banned from major cities...Paris has already set this in motion, London which has the biggest (or is it second biggest?) particle pollution in Europe will be next, other cities will follow. The transport secretary stated today that in light of recent events over diesel cars he will do all in his power to protect the people, read into that what you will.....

 

[Waylander]

From what I read on the BBC website looks like a law firm is now taking instruction on a no win no fee basis to get refunds for customers on there cars as they were mis sold like PPI

This is going to get very interesting, if my car has to get a ecu flash that reduces the power then I will sign up for a refund

 

[PSH]

well that's assuming that VW have any money left...France has now joined in wanting to know if any cars with the 'cheat software' have been sold to them..I think it's safe to say that it's unlikely that they didn't get any along with any other country that VW supply...personally I don't see how they can survive this and where does that leave the rest of the group????

 

[vitesse]

As far as I can see,the big picture hasn't yet entered the real world once cars have been purchased as the Mot figures are what still determine whether cars can continue to run on our roads once they are 3 yrs old.

I haven't taken any interest in the -big picture- really because that doesn't determine my day to day living under current legislation & I doubt whether any of these "fraudulent" vehicles are any more emissive of NoX's than any other vehicles of similar type already running around .
That is not to say I don't care -I use my bike locally-the local train network whenever possible(in my opinion of course) & bought the BMW because it was legal & I could & it seemed the best choice for me & my activities-it is after all a well praised driver's car.
What baffle me more are the Toyota Prius's driven at 80mph on motorways-but like almost everything today people work as close to legislation as possible & no more & the success of VW & all car/vehicle producers seems to have assisted world economic growth even if or despite the Chinese clearly having lied about their economic situation for some time.

I'll get my coat![&o]

 

[white944]

The thing is.... Motorists were encouraged to buy diesel by governments egged on by the Global Warming industry (now rebranded as Climate Change) as a low CO2 option. Remember CO2? The manufacturers responded to this by producing a wide range of diesel options. The Public bought into this, the manufacturers competing with each other to sell the most refined and high performance diesels possible, which Joe Public loved.
In the meantime, whilst still pushing diesels as environmentally sound, the environmentalists and governments realised that their precious low carbon diesels had other issues and produced stricter and stricter emissions standards which the manufacturers were obliged to meet, no matter how unrealistic. The cars were tested in a fixed format as part of the type approval process, and the results published. The fixed testing criteria gives continuity across the industry, and makes it possible for You and I to compare products for fuel consumption, CO2 emissions etc.
The ever more stringent emissions standards are becoming at odds with the Public's, and hence manufacturer's quest for performance, and in order to comply with current and future standards it is very possibly becoming technically and/or economically impossible to produce a reliable diesel car with the performance and driveability that we are used to that fully complies.
The manufacturers (and it won't just be Volkswagen) have managed to produce cars which do pass the criteria laid down by legislation. If the governments had required them to pass other tests, such as the road tests recently carried out in the 'States, no doubt the manufacturers would have complied.
As far as misleading the Public. The statutory test data is published for each car on sale as is required by law, and the manufacturers are free to, and do use this in their marketing material If the legislation required more data to be published, the manufacturers would have had to comply.
So, car manufacturers were encouraged to churn out diesels by the environmentalists, who then changed their minds. The manufacturers have managed to keep producing the diesels that the Public had been conned into buying by the environmentalists, in spite of the increasingly unrealistic emissions legislation thrown at them.
The environmentalists have now realised that their whole diesel idea was a big mistake and have hung the manufacturers out to dry.