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Precautionary head gasket changing?

Some of you lot can be amazing at times.

I write something serious to advise what I have discovered and it turns into a debate about things I never said or mentioned plus lots of nonsense while others got it right first time and understood correctly and defend my posting superbly.

Let's put the record straight "" I never said that a corroded head gasket needed changing because it would fail to seal the cylinder compression or leak coolant. My warning was that the lack of proper rear cylinder coolant circulation could result in the seizures we have seen particularly in S2's (as rightly pointed out due to reduced piston taper and coolant block depth).

I said that it would probably only become a problem with spirited driving (which more S2 owners indulge in than 2.5 or 2.7 owners due to the additional performance available)

I suggested that IF THE GASKET HAS NEVER BEEN CHANGED and you are anyway due new belts or a water pump "" it might then be worth the small additional cost to replace the head gasket.

The idea that it can be just as cost effective to buy a spare block and then if it seizes "" it is as cheap to rebuild an engine with new piston etc as to replace a head gasket - is utter nonsense.

Even after 4-6 years old a high performance sports car need a different approach to maintenance checks to keep it in good condition because items wear and can fail that would never be put in an owner's handbook. Perished rubber, brake corrosion, suspension settling changing geo, etc etc "" all start to need looking at and with the 944 range at least 20 years old "" however little it is driven "" following the manufacturers original check list is misinformed and dangerous.

That is why "" as Porsche's age "" often Independents see more of the older cars and provide not only better service check regimes but also can remanufacture or re-source more suitable parts at a lower cost.

Preventative maintenance is the answer to all reliability issues (unless the product has a known random weak spot which the 944 range don't).

There may well not be a lot of problem cars out there so far but most of the head gaskets that have never been changed will now have these rot holes inside but still be running OK and those still driven with gusto will eventually start to damage pistons and bores "" especially in S2's.

It is so easily forgotten that when we first advised against not changing the S1, S2 and 968 cam chain (as Porsche listed it as a "service for life item") we had the very same doubters and arguments as now. Typically people hadn't heard of a problem "" so there wasn't one - yet not a single buyers guide report will ignore the issue now and countless people have been saved from the huge expense that early failures cost those innocent owners.

Similarly with the Boxster and 996 issues "" 5 years ago we were apparently scare-mongering about IMS bearings and cracked liners "" now it is a relatively common and accepted problem.

I particularly like those who complain that I only told them about this after they have just had the belts done "" but what am I supposed to do about that "" it is inevitable that whenever someone understands a problem and warns others about it that some will just have had something similar done and wish they had known beforehand "" so should no one ever provide these warnings in case it catches the minority out?

With planned maintenance you do replace most things (yes oil, coolant, brake fluid, belts etc etc) actually long before they are going to cause a problem. How else could you do it? You couldn't advise people to run until the point where some fail and there is always exceptions that lower the failure point much lower than most of the product will experience. Anyone undertaking planned maintenance will never know if they needed the part when it was fitted because that very change prevents you finding out "" there is nothing new in this and it will always be the same. No one can ever say "it's a good job they changed my brake fluid as it was about to boil and cause a crash next week "" or that the recent oil change prevented my number 2 big end failing". As the cars get older the list inevitably increases and this item should properly be put on that list now for all 944's "" I REPEAT that have not had a head gasket in the last 10 to 12 years!

Good planned maintenance delivers reliable results but there is obviously a cost. You can take your chance and risk it and many will be able to run a 944 for 10 years and 100K without ever changing the oil, belts or anything "" but quite a lot will eventually blow up.

I don't think you would fly with your family with an airline that has a record of one flight crash/year because they run longer service air mile intervals "" would you?

I understand that as these old cars age and are cheap to buy "" often owners cannot afford the level of maintenance they probably deserve and they take the risks associated with that but my advice was merely to suggest that IF you want to keep driving in a spirited way and IF you have never had a head gasket change and obviously IF you can afford it "" then this information suggests a head gasket should be on your list "" especially if you have other maintenance being done that has duplication to minimise the cost.

What you do about the information is entirely up to you. We do not seek 944 head gasket jobs "" they are priced competitively and with corrosion of exhausts etc become very time consuming - they are not particularly rewarding "" but please don't start suggesting that the gasket deterioration is not ever going to cause a problem and don't complain if you end up seizing a piston.

As per my original advice - if you want to keep the car and enjoy driving it as it was intended and you have never had a head gasket change - especially if it is an S2 - try and afford to have it changed for the security of not wrecking the engine.

Baz
 
Baz,

Thanks for your clarifying post. I'll admit that I didn't re-read your original thread on the topic before posting on this one, and I should have done. Apologies.

Having said that, I take all your points on board. Your comments about preventative maintenance always being a good thing are well made; if you do preventative maintenance you never know may have happened because (by definition) you have prevented it. To try and disagree would be quite illogical; one does such maintenance as a precaution against expensive failure.

I think the point I am (and others are) trying to make is that, at some stage, preventative maintenance becomes too cautious. I change my brake fluid every two years, and buy good-quality (but not branded) DOT5 fluid. Why? Because it prevents against brake failure due to overly-old fluid. I could do the fluid change every 6 months, and use the most expensive racing-spec DOT97 fluid, but I don't. Why not? Because it's not (in my opinion) worth it. You could say the same about tyres; legal minimum is 1.6mm of tread, and I tend to change them at 2.0mm. It's preventative. Why do I change at 2.0mm and not 2.5 or 3.0mm? Because, while it would be better precaution, it's not worth it. The cost of doing this, versus the risk taken, doesn't make it worth while.

And that is the situation, as I see it, with the head gasket. I have an '89 S2, which has never (as far as I am aware) had the head off. The HG is therefore original. I also drive it briskly. I must therefore be fairly high on the risk-list for failure. But, the time taken and the cost for the parts mean that I don't think that it's worth my while to replace the head gasket. I may be wrong, and I may come to regret it, but it is a risk I am happy to take.

I certainly take your point about changing the HG when the belts are off being much cheaper. I don't know what is involved in getting the head off an S2 (I've done the job on other 4-cylinder cars, but not on a Porsche), but am given to believe from what I read on this forum that it is a bit involved. Mind you, this forum has also suggested that doing the belts is difficult and it's not, so perhaps it's the same with the head.

Please don't think I doubt you - I don't, and many thanks for the explanation. As with all of your posts on here, it has opened my eyes to parts of my car which I didn't understand before; thank you for flagging it as an issue, and for taking the time to write it up so comprehensively. (And - hypocritical as this request may appear - I wish you would post more often on this forum as your posts are always worth reading for a DIY mechanic such as me.)


Oli.
 
My original HG was rotten on my 1990 turbo when it blew a few years back. The excess boost didn't help (a faulty boost controller meant I was occasionally peaking at 30ish PSI). Its not much more work when doing the belts, and if its not a daily driver - so you dont need to rush it - quite rewarding to do oneself. You can get at many bits and bobs in the engine bay that are otherwise tricky to reach and spend many happy hours cleaning!
If my car was tracked or to be tracked I would definitely get it done. On a gently driven garage queen, if I didn't have the skill or enthusiasm to diy, I may not bother until it goes. Would be interesting to use an IR thermometer on various parts of the engine though.
PS look through all the good advice/articles on the Hartech website offered free - i am sure they took many hours to produce and if Barry was in it for the money they could easily be sold as booklets. Never met Barry or been to Hartech (must drop by one day!) but he strikes me as a very knowledgeable enthusiast who happens to be able to make an honest living from something he enjoys and wants others to enjoy.

Tony
 

ORIGINAL: Lowtimer

(a faulty boost controller meant I was occasionally peaking at 30ish PSI)

Bet that was exciting, if only briefly...

wheelspin at 125 in 4th - it woke me up ;)

the gasket actually held then, it went at normal boost levels about 2k miles later, was rotting behind number 4 and the cylinder pressure pushed the 'fire ring' out to the rot.
Tony
 
Great discussion. My '86 2.5 NA has done just over 90k and is still on the original HG. Another couple of summers and the belts will be due again but getting the HG changed, considering cost, as a precaution is more about whether i want to commit to the car or not rather than whether it's necessary. There's no point putting money into it if i'm going to end up short of space due to another project, but the car has given me 3 faultless summers and i've really connected with it unlike the stupid S4 i had before. It smokes on hard accelleration and guzzles around 1L of oil per 4k so i'm going to do some compression testing on it before it comes out in the spring to see if there's any serious ring wear. The results will decide if i consider it an investment in reliable transport or a labour of love, but so far Porsche has never struck me as a brand that empties your wallet without giving ample reward.
 
ORIGINAL: bazhart

Some of you lot can be amazing at times.

I write something serious to advise what I have discovered and it turns into a debate about things I never said or mentioned plus lots of nonsense while others got it right first time and understood correctly and defend my posting superbly.

Let's put the record straight "" I never said that a corroded head gasket needed changing because it would fail to seal the cylinder compression or leak coolant. My warning was that the lack of proper rear cylinder coolant circulation could result in the seizures we have seen particularly in S2's (as rightly pointed out due to reduced piston taper and coolant block depth).

I said that it would probably only become a problem with spirited driving (which more S2 owners indulge in than 2.5 or 2.7 owners due to the additional performance available)

I suggested that IF THE GASKET HAS NEVER BEEN CHANGED and you are anyway due new belts or a water pump "" it might then be worth the small additional cost to replace the head gasket.

The idea that it can be just as cost effective to buy a spare block and then if it seizes "" it is as cheap to rebuild an engine with new piston etc as to replace a head gasket - is utter nonsense.

Even after 4-6 years old a high performance sports car need a different approach to maintenance checks to keep it in good condition because items wear and can fail that would never be put in an owner's handbook. Perished rubber, brake corrosion, suspension settling changing geo, etc etc "" all start to need looking at and with the 944 range at least 20 years old "" however little it is driven "" following the manufacturers original check list is misinformed and dangerous.

That is why "" as Porsche's age "" often Independents see more of the older cars and provide not only better service check regimes but also can remanufacture or re-source more suitable parts at a lower cost.

Preventative maintenance is the answer to all reliability issues (unless the product has a known random weak spot which the 944 range don't).

There may well not be a lot of problem cars out there so far but most of the head gaskets that have never been changed will now have these rot holes inside but still be running OK and those still driven with gusto will eventually start to damage pistons and bores "" especially in S2's.

It is so easily forgotten that when we first advised against not changing the S1, S2 and 968 cam chain (as Porsche listed it as a "service for life item") we had the very same doubters and arguments as now. Typically people hadn't heard of a problem "" so there wasn't one - yet not a single buyers guide report will ignore the issue now and countless people have been saved from the huge expense that early failures cost those innocent owners.

Similarly with the Boxster and 996 issues "" 5 years ago we were apparently scare-mongering about IMS bearings and cracked liners "" now it is a relatively common and accepted problem.

I particularly like those who complain that I only told them about this after they have just had the belts done "" but what am I supposed to do about that "" it is inevitable that whenever someone understands a problem and warns others about it that some will just have had something similar done and wish they had known beforehand "" so should no one ever provide these warnings in case it catches the minority out?

With planned maintenance you do replace most things (yes oil, coolant, brake fluid, belts etc etc) actually long before they are going to cause a problem. How else could you do it? You couldn't advise people to run until the point where some fail and there is always exceptions that lower the failure point much lower than most of the product will experience. Anyone undertaking planned maintenance will never know if they needed the part when it was fitted because that very change prevents you finding out "" there is nothing new in this and it will always be the same. No one can ever say "it's a good job they changed my brake fluid as it was about to boil and cause a crash next week "" or that the recent oil change prevented my number 2 big end failing". As the cars get older the list inevitably increases and this item should properly be put on that list now for all 944's "" I REPEAT that have not had a head gasket in the last 10 to 12 years!

Good planned maintenance delivers reliable results but there is obviously a cost. You can take your chance and risk it and many will be able to run a 944 for 10 years and 100K without ever changing the oil, belts or anything "" but quite a lot will eventually blow up.

I don't think you would fly with your family with an airline that has a record of one flight crash/year because they run longer service air mile intervals "" would you?

I understand that as these old cars age and are cheap to buy "" often owners cannot afford the level of maintenance they probably deserve and they take the risks associated with that but my advice was merely to suggest that IF you want to keep driving in a spirited way and IF you have never had a head gasket change and obviously IF you can afford it "" then this information suggests a head gasket should be on your list "" especially if you have other maintenance being done that has duplication to minimise the cost.

What you do about the information is entirely up to you. We do not seek 944 head gasket jobs "" they are priced competitively and with corrosion of exhausts etc become very time consuming - they are not particularly rewarding "" but please don't start suggesting that the gasket deterioration is not ever going to cause a problem and don't complain if you end up seizing a piston.

As per my original advice - if you want to keep the car and enjoy driving it as it was intended and you have never had a head gasket change - especially if it is an S2 - try and afford to have it changed for the security of not wrecking the engine.

Baz

That really is a fantastic post Baz - big thanks for taking the time to type it out!

By the way, I'm one of those people who had their belts changed not so long ago, and I certainly am not moaning at you, for telling us the information from your findings that the head gasket needs changing as a precaution, if it hasn't been done before (or in the the last 10-12 yrs) I'm grateful that you have passed on this information and while I won't be rushing out to get the head gasket changed, I have moved changing the head gasket significantly forward in my planned maintenance for my car and it'll get changed when I get the belts changed, as well as the variocam chain and pads in about a year or so time.
 
Ditto! had belts/idlers/chain/pads done 100 miles/1 track day ago. Expert advice then was not to worry about head gasket. Expert advice has just been made redundant!

Barry, thanks very much for sharing your hard won experience and knowledge with us. Keep it coming! (and don't worry about the gnashing of teeth of enthusuiasts who are going to have to justify more expenditure on their toy to their personal exchequers!)
 
It's all about risk management and I have no problem with anyone deciding for whatever reason to take a risk over anything I post advice about - but the secret of good risk management is knowledge without which it is impossible to make the right decisions.

My posts on all subjects are to inform owners where there has been incorrect, misleading or previously unknown issues - so they can decide what to do that is best for them - that's all - and when something new pops up - IMHO it is better to be informed than not!

Perhaps also to inform about cost effective solutions that will save them money.

Baz
 
Surely if the head has never been off, is well north of 100k on the clock and 20 years old it would be a good excuse to re-capture some missing horses with a head refurb.
More power and maybe prevent major failiure, good motivation to me.
Certainly the S2 head that was on my old car needed new guides and some welding to correct corrosion issues.
 
ORIGINAL: JamesO

Surely if the head has never been off, is well north of 100k on the clock and 20 years old it would be a good excuse to re-capture some missing horses with a head refurb.

I wonder what the cost would be of such work? (honestly)

Edd
 
ORIGINAL: Super_Marv

ORIGINAL: bazhart

Some of you lot can be amazing at times.

I write something serious to advise what I have discovered and it turns into a debate about things I never said or mentioned plus lots of nonsense while others got it right first time and understood correctly and defend my posting superbly.

Let's put the record straight "" I never said that a corroded head gasket needed changing because it would fail to seal the cylinder compression or leak coolant. My warning was that the lack of proper rear cylinder coolant circulation could result in the seizures we have seen particularly in S2's (as rightly pointed out due to reduced piston taper and coolant block depth).

I said that it would probably only become a problem with spirited driving (which more S2 owners indulge in than 2.5 or 2.7 owners due to the additional performance available)

I suggested that IF THE GASKET HAS NEVER BEEN CHANGED and you are anyway due new belts or a water pump "" it might then be worth the small additional cost to replace the head gasket.

The idea that it can be just as cost effective to buy a spare block and then if it seizes "" it is as cheap to rebuild an engine with new piston etc as to replace a head gasket - is utter nonsense.

Even after 4-6 years old a high performance sports car need a different approach to maintenance checks to keep it in good condition because items wear and can fail that would never be put in an owner's handbook. Perished rubber, brake corrosion, suspension settling changing geo, etc etc "" all start to need looking at and with the 944 range at least 20 years old "" however little it is driven "" following the manufacturers original check list is misinformed and dangerous.

That is why "" as Porsche's age "" often Independents see more of the older cars and provide not only better service check regimes but also can remanufacture or re-source more suitable parts at a lower cost.

Preventative maintenance is the answer to all reliability issues (unless the product has a known random weak spot which the 944 range don't).

There may well not be a lot of problem cars out there so far but most of the head gaskets that have never been changed will now have these rot holes inside but still be running OK and those still driven with gusto will eventually start to damage pistons and bores "" especially in S2's.

It is so easily forgotten that when we first advised against not changing the S1, S2 and 968 cam chain (as Porsche listed it as a "service for life item") we had the very same doubters and arguments as now. Typically people hadn't heard of a problem "" so there wasn't one - yet not a single buyers guide report will ignore the issue now and countless people have been saved from the huge expense that early failures cost those innocent owners.

Similarly with the Boxster and 996 issues "" 5 years ago we were apparently scare-mongering about IMS bearings and cracked liners "" now it is a relatively common and accepted problem.

I particularly like those who complain that I only told them about this after they have just had the belts done "" but what am I supposed to do about that "" it is inevitable that whenever someone understands a problem and warns others about it that some will just have had something similar done and wish they had known beforehand "" so should no one ever provide these warnings in case it catches the minority out?

With planned maintenance you do replace most things (yes oil, coolant, brake fluid, belts etc etc) actually long before they are going to cause a problem. How else could you do it? You couldn't advise people to run until the point where some fail and there is always exceptions that lower the failure point much lower than most of the product will experience. Anyone undertaking planned maintenance will never know if they needed the part when it was fitted because that very change prevents you finding out "" there is nothing new in this and it will always be the same. No one can ever say "it's a good job they changed my brake fluid as it was about to boil and cause a crash next week "" or that the recent oil change prevented my number 2 big end failing". As the cars get older the list inevitably increases and this item should properly be put on that list now for all 944's "" I REPEAT that have not had a head gasket in the last 10 to 12 years!

Good planned maintenance delivers reliable results but there is obviously a cost. You can take your chance and risk it and many will be able to run a 944 for 10 years and 100K without ever changing the oil, belts or anything "" but quite a lot will eventually blow up.

I don't think you would fly with your family with an airline that has a record of one flight crash/year because they run longer service air mile intervals "" would you?

I understand that as these old cars age and are cheap to buy "" often owners cannot afford the level of maintenance they probably deserve and they take the risks associated with that but my advice was merely to suggest that IF you want to keep driving in a spirited way and IF you have never had a head gasket change and obviously IF you can afford it "" then this information suggests a head gasket should be on your list "" especially if you have other maintenance being done that has duplication to minimise the cost.

What you do about the information is entirely up to you. We do not seek 944 head gasket jobs "" they are priced competitively and with corrosion of exhausts etc become very time consuming - they are not particularly rewarding "" but please don't start suggesting that the gasket deterioration is not ever going to cause a problem and don't complain if you end up seizing a piston.

As per my original advice - if you want to keep the car and enjoy driving it as it was intended and you have never had a head gasket change - especially if it is an S2 - try and afford to have it changed for the security of not wrecking the engine.

Baz

That really is a fantastic post Baz - big thanks for taking the time to type it out!

By the way, I'm one of those people who had their belts changed not so long ago, and I certainly am not moaning at you, for telling us the information from your findings that the head gasket needs changing as a precaution, if it hasn't been done before (or in the the last 10-12 yrs) I'm grateful that you have passed on this information and while I won't be rushing out to get the head gasket changed, I have moved changing the head gasket significantly forward in my planned maintenance for my car and it'll get changed when I get the belts changed, as well as the variocam chain and pads in about a year or so time.
hiya, i am with you super marv as well, i only had belts, front seals and lotsmore done just over a 1,000miles ago but not head gasket and i was not "moaning" or being critical of baz hart, the exact opposite in fact, just stating in my o/p that if i was equipped with baz"s findings then i would definitly have changed the head gasket, and i am one those who welcome and value baz harts posts, so i am sorry if i caused baz hart any bad feeling, thats totally not what i intended, cheers jason
 
I don't want to scare people off from flying but aircraft are not necessarily maintained according to preventative maintenance - it is too expensive and airlines want their pound of flesh out of their expensive equipment. Of course there are some things that are regularly replaced like consumable items like filters and fluid changes, but generally aircraft are managed on an 'On Condition' basis where the performance and condition of components are monitored and regularly inspected and tested and are only rejected if they fail one of the many inspection or performance criteria. Generally the failure of most components are benign due to the redundancy built into aircraft and aircraft systems - often as a passenger you wont even be aware of a component failing and the flight will usually continue un-hindered.

I'm not sure what the answer is on the HG thing. To make an informed judgement you'd need to drive a good 20,000 cars or so to 200k miles or more under controlled and consistent driving conditions on their original HG to and see which ones have engine failures for this cause to establish the risk you're running. I know where Baz's logic comes from but i'm not sure how many failed engines due to this cause he's seen and if that is statistically significant for everyone to start panicking. Sure it is a risk, but there are many other risks you're running with these old cars. At what stage should you pay for a complete engine rebuild in the name of preventative maintenance?

Clearly if you are modding or tracking your car then it would be a sensible and prudent thing to do.
 
ORIGINAL: Copperman05

ORIGINAL: JamesO

Surely if the head has never been off, is well north of 100k on the clock and 20 years old it would be a good excuse to re-capture some missing horses with a head refurb.

I wonder what the cost would be of such work? (honestly)

Edd
wonder what the cost would be of such work? (honestly)

I will dig out the invoice, from memory the welding was about 30 pounds.
Its worth mentioning that I currently have in my garage 4 heads, turbo, S2, 968 and 2.7.
Of those heads the 968 and S2 both have or had pitting and the other two do not, no idea why. Wrong anti freeze?

The total as about 650 I think,but it was also to rectify a damaged cam bearing surface where a saddle was put on the wrong way round at some point in its life.
The point was not the cost but that it needed to be done. If it wasn't for the cam saddle I could have just used it as it was but it was pretty leaky around the valves so would have been down on power. I think it needed 2 guides.
 

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