Problem #2148 - Car wont start.

[dirtydirtyharry]

It never rains but it pours.

My 86 Lux wouldnt fire up this afternoon. It turns when the key is in the ignition but wont fire up.

I have an important day at work tommorrow and commute (the lux is my only car). Unfortunately as my luck would have it, the problem happens on a bank holiday.

I have charged the battery for a couple of hours using my dads charger (and made sure there is plenty of water in it). Still no luck.

I then replaced the DME relay with a spare from my glovebox but again, no difference.

Does anyone have any pearls of wisdom?? [][][]

Is there any way to check if the problem is the alternator?? (without actually having a replacement alternator)

Thanks again.

 

[barks944]

If its cranking then its probably not a battery issue. You need to be methodical and check over the fuelling and ignition systems.

 

[petrolhead944]

sounds like the alarm to me..what alarm as it got fitted..cheers carl

 

[dirtydirtyharry]

Apologies for my 'noobness' but Im not very mechanically minded.

Yeah the engine seems to be cranking but it just wont fire, I presumed this may be the battery but like I say, I know little!

I havent altered anything lately but we did have a lot of rain last night.

The car has an immobiliser but I can tell that it has been deactivated as the red light goes out when I insert the security tag into the sensor on the dash. I dont think it is this.

There is a can of 'easy start' in the boot compartment from a previous keeper. I presume you just spray this into the airbox and then try firing up the car??

I just cant believe this, an endless series of problems [&:]

 

[barks944]

Check the plugs/leads/cap/rotor/Coil. Try spraying a load of WD40 into the cap and over the plugs etc.

 

[dirtydirtyharry]

ORIGINAL: barks944

Check the plugs/leads/cap/rotor/Coil. Try spraying a load of WD40 into the cap and over the plugs etc.

Will try that tommorrow mate, cheers. Unfortunately I cant really do it now as its dark and cant get into garage.

 

[dirtydirtyharry]

Incidentally, do the pop up lights work when the key isnt in the ignition??. I tried this earlier and they would not rise.

 

[barks944]

I have had rotors/caps go on me twice now (last time I thought I had put diesel in it ), although tbf in both cases the issues started and got worse rather than failing with no prior notice. Make sure you check the condition of the rotor carefully and the contacts on the dizzy cap. Also listen to see if the fuel pump is running (under drivers side rear) and that the rev counter is bouncing. Those are probably some of the easiest checks for a non-mech minded person to do.

 

[Frenchy]

Sorry to hear of your woes, makes you start to want to give up on the car but bear with it as they are usually very reliable once sorted,puul a plug lead and stick an old plug in ground it and hold with INSULATED PLIERS, crank over via er indoors, are you getting a spark ?if so then it may be fuelling at fault, whip a plug out after cranking it should be wet with fuel if it's getting through.
There is a sensor which looks down on to the flywheel at the rear of the engine passenger side this senses cranking speed and when it see 45 rpm it then switches the DME realy which in turn switches on the fuel and ignition.
Good Luck with it.

 

[peanut]

if it ran ok previously without any problems then its most likely something very simple rather than anything failed.
If nothing has been replaced or disturbed in the engine bay then I would start with the basic checks first before replacing anything.

There is a very good 'no start' troubleshooting guide on Clarkes Garage website in their shop manual section.

Be systematic and follow the guide in order making a note of what has been checked with what result.

Please don't be offended but how much petrol have you got in the tank ? if its nearly empty your pump may have pumped some water or crud into the system or there may be insufficient fuel to pressurize the fuel system or possibly a vacumn build up in the tank if the vent is blocked.

The engine has to crank at least 200rpm minimum or the ECU (engine management system ) will prevent both spark to plugs and fuel pump and pulse to injectors.


ps be very careful with the easy start. It is a highly volatile fuel which will explode with a spark or hot surfaces . Its not like petrol.
If you spray lots into the air filter and it doesn't start for a while you could have some spectacular results

 

[dirtydirtyharry]

Hi, according to the fuel gauge I had at least a quarter of a tank left last time I drove it. I have no reason to suspct it has suddenly gone innacccurate. I have certainly done many more miles in the past on a full tank. Im sure there is fuel in there.

I havent done any engine bay work lately, just been stripping interior out to find water leak. Changed some seals, that was it.

ONE THING WHICH I HAVE NOTICED OUT OF THE ORDINARY OVER THE PAST WEEK (not sure if it is relevant) - The immobilser is one of those keyring type ones where you push the key ring 'thingy' into the sensor on the dashboard. This stops the red light flickering for about 5 seconds during which time you can fire up the engine.

HOWEVER - over the past week or so inserting the thingy into the sensor has not seemed to register and the subsequent inserting ofthe key into the ignition will not allow the engine to crank. I have then had to reinsert the 'thingy'.

(The engine is however cranking right now so im not sure if this is relevant. If the immobiliser doesnt disarm, then the engine wont crank at all)

 

[peanut]

two things . You may have a faulty immobiliser . It sounds like quite a crude one probably just forming a switch between the starter motor and the ignition switch . You could bypass it easily enough .
Secondly make sure you haven't disturbed the ECU when ferriting around in the passenger footwell . Might be worth disconnecting the ECU and reconnecting it to clean the terminals a bit.

I bet it will fire straight up in the morning . []

 

[dirtydirtyharry]

ORIGINAL: peanut

two things . You may have a faulty immobiliser . It sounds like quite a crude one probably just forming a switch between the starter motor and the ignition switch . You could bypass it easily enough .
Secondly make sure you haven't disturbed the ECU when ferriting around in the passenger footwell . Might be worth disconnecting the ECU and reconnecting it to clean the terminals a bit.

I bet it will fire straight up in the morning . []

LOL, I will be VERY happy if it does!

Cheers again for all the advice guys, legends one and all.

 

[dirtydirtyharry]

Well Ive had no luck this morning. Tried what I can, plugs seem fine, fuses etc. Its definitely not a battery issue

It still wont fire. Ive just asked a mobile mechanic to pop over.

 

[peanut]

ouch that will be expensive. especially If he is not familiar with the Bosche Motronic fuel injection system of a 944 []

Still if you're stuck without transport you've little option really. Was there no PGGB member near you who could help?

If he looks like he's stuck or wants to bolt a load of new parts on in the hopes the problem will go away , suggest he looks at the Clarkes Garage workshop manual and no start guide which is very helpful.


pm me if you want more help I've quite a lot of stuff about no starting on 944 from Bosche etc
Introduction Troubleshooting starting and running problems can sometimes be quite difficult. This is especially true if you aren't aware if all the possible causes of a problem. This is a general guide which will list symptoms for 944 starting and running problems and common causes of those problems. It is intended to help you map out a troubleshooting plan. Running Problems

1. Rough Idle
   1. If the car starts when cold but, idles rough or does not want to stay running, this can indicate a problem with the engine temperature sensor. When the engine is started cold, the engine temperature sensor sends a signal to the DME control unit to provide a richer mixture. As the engine temperature sensor starts to fail, it sends a higher than actual temperature signal to the DME control unit. The DME control unit leans the fuel mixture thinking the engine is at normal operating temperature. This causes the engine to run rough. As the engine warms, it not longer needs the richer cold idle mixture and the engine runs smoother. If the car idles rough this can also be indicative of bad plug wires, distributor, or rotor. One way to check for bad plug wires is to inspect the plug wire runs with the car running in a very dark area. If the plug wires are bad you should see some arching to the cylinder head or fuel rail. If the car idles rough or cuts off at low RPM or idle, the cause could be a failing O2 sensor. The O2 sensor is out of the loop at full throttle and will not affect the way the car runs. A rough idle can also be caused by a problem with the air flow box. The damper for the air flow box can fail mechanically or the contacts inside the box can get dirty and send a errant signal to the DME control unit. This can sometimes be corrected by cleaning the electrical contacts inside the air box. This requires removing the cover on the air box which is held in place by caulk. You will need to cut through the caulk and gently pry the cover off. Once the cover is removed, clean the circuit board inside with a good contact cleaner. When you have finished cleaning the circuit board, reattach the cover using a non-corrosive caulk. If the car experiences a rough idle or idle fluctuates several hundred RPM, this can indicate a sticking idle stabilizer valve. Many people have removed and cleaned them but, this is normally a temporary fix and the valve should be replaced. A faulty O2 sensor can also cause RPM to fluctuate at idle. Unplug the O2 sensor and see if the idle still fluctuates.
2. Difficult Starting
   1. If the car is difficult to crank after sitting for more than several hours, the fuel return regulator or fuel pump check valve could be faulty. This will allow the fuel rail to depressurize and it takes some time for the fuel pump to increase fuel rail pressure sufficiently to fire the car. If the car is difficult to start when warm, again the fuel pump check valve, fuel return regulator, or individual fuel injectors could be leaking. The fuel pump check valve or the fuel return regulator leaking allows the fuel to drain back to the gas tank depressurizing the fuel rail.
3. 1. When the car is warm, the fuel remaining in the fuel rail can flash causing vapor lock. There are several ways to check this. One is to connect a fuel pressure gauge at the fuel rail. Start the car, let it run until fuel pressure is stable, then shut down the car and monitor the pressure at the fuel rail. With the car not running, the pressure at the fuel rail should not decrease to less than 15 psig. If it starts to decrease, clamp the rubber part of the line from the fuel return regulator to the gas tank and see if it stops the pressure decrease. If not, clamp the line at the discharge of the fuel pump and see if it stops the pressure decrease.
4. 1. An individual fuel injector leaking can depressurize the fuel rail and cause the same problem. If the car starts easily when cold, but is difficult to start when warm a failing DME relay could be causing the problem. As the DME relay starts to fail, it operates at a higher temperature. If the car is stopped, the higher temperature of the relay creates a high enough resistance to keep the relay from picking up when the car is started again. When the relay cools and the resistance decreases, the relay will again function normally. If the car is very hard to start or only fires part of the time and then dies it could be a problem with the distributor cap or rotor. 944 rotors are notorious for having the set screw back out of the rotor allowing it to spin on the end of the camshaft. When this happens the car will not fire at all or will fire momentarily when the rotor is in line with the correct cylinder to be fired.
5. 1. If the car is difficult to start when cold it could be a problem with the engine speed or reference sensors. One of the sensors sends a signal to the DME for TDC and the other an engine speed signal. The DME uses these signals to time the pulses to the ignition coil and the firing of the fuel injectors. If the sensors do not send the proper signal to the DME the normal result is a failure to get proper spark from the ignition coil. Sometimes their failure may be a result of debris building up on the ends of the sensors which reduces the gap between the sensor and the flywheel. If so, cleaning the ends of the sensor may get them working again.
6. 1. If the car is difficult to start or will not start at all regardless of operating temperature, there are a number of problems which could be causing this. Here is a list of possible causes:
      • DME Control Unit
      • DME Relay
      • Security System Control Unit
      • Fuel Pump
      • Fuel Pump Fuse
      • Distributor Cap, Rotor, Coil, or Primary Coil Wire
      • Engine Speed and/or Reference Sensors
      A fuel pressure gauge, spark tester, and voltmeter are extremely useful in narrowing down the possible causes of the problem.

 

[Copperman05]

The AA, RAC or ADAC always come in handy during these moments...[]

Edd

 

[peanut]

well its either working and he's gone to work or he's on the way to the car crusher []

 

[dirtydirtyharry]

Im waiting on the mechanic turning up. Fingers crossed

 

[smiffyraf1]

bet it was the rotor in the dizzy!

 

[dirtydirtyharry]

Right, its sorted (or just about!)

The blokey didnt turn up surprise surprise but fortunately a mate of a mate popped round and helped out (Cheers Mike!)

I wont keep you in suspense any longer...

It was the ignition coil lead which goes to the centre of the dizzy (not sure what the correct name is [&o] )

Anyway it appears that the headlight mechanism had 'nicked it' at some point when I opened or retracted the headlights. It was causing a spark to fly across the engine bay. I would have seen it myself had I asked the other half to try and fire it up while I looked round the engine bay. Doh!

Heres a photo for what its worth. I think im going to have to get new leads tommorrow. The car is firing up now as I put electrical tape over the bare wire (as a temp fix!)

Cheers again for all your help.