Question for Carrera Club Sport owners

[Gary.H]

Hi,

I'm looking to put 4 new 3.2 Carrera Club Sport shocks on my '82 SC Sport ( driver's front leaking and am taking the opportunity to upgrade/replace a lot of the suspension components ).

My question, before I put them on, is 'ride quality'. Just how harsh is the ride in a Carrera Club Sport ?

Any thoughts or feedback welcome.

Cheers - Gary

 

[Andy Tims]

Gary, just sold my CS & I don't think the ride was harsh at all.

 

[oliver]

The ride, handling and overall balance of the 911 Club Sport are excellent and certainly not 'harsh'.

Wheel/tyre choices can make a bigger difference. The CS is at its most compliant and progressive on 6s&7s and 205s&225s (x15 or 16).

 

[franklin]

ORIGINAL: Gary.H
am taking the opportunity to upgrade/replace a lot of the suspension components

You will probably know this already but just in-case

The torsion bars may be weaker than they were 25 years ago Consider upgrading to 21mm fronts, and 27mm rears for high performance handling (for the lighter 911's). There's the anti-rollbars too. You will need your ride heights resetting, maybe even lower the car marginally, slightly nose down aka 1degree. While you are stripping and cleaning, free-up the rear toe and camber eccentric adjusters and the front tosion bar adjusters. You may have to install new ones ( at the rear), this will save you a fortune in labour costs. Then get corner weight balancing done after ride height setting and before wheel alignment. This ensures that the car has balanced left and right turn in, and that the weight distribution is as per factory.

There are ample threads on suspension and alignment topic on the forum. Hope this helps a little.

 

[Gary.H]

Guys,

Thanks for the replies. Seems like I won't lose any teeth due to the ride quality []

It's going into 9M shortly for torsion bars, anti-roll bars, rear spring plates, dampers and the turbo steering arm upgrade. Should be handling better than new after Robin's worked his magic []

Cheers - Gary

 

[franklin]

If you are replacing spring plates you may want to upgrade to ERP plates with Heim joints. Have attached a photo. Follow the thread:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?perpage=20&threadid=207216&pagenumber=5

There's also the front through the body anti-roll bar typical of earlier cars with adjustable links for tuning of a/r stiffness and fine corner weight balance tuning.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/images/suspension_parts/welt_swaybar.jpg
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/images/suspension_parts/tarett-Sway_Bar11.jpg

Please do keep us updated with progress with the works and the resultant handling improvements.

 

[Gary.H]

Thanks Franklin,

Thanks to the leaking driver's front damper and bent/worn spring plates it currently dives and locks under braking, wriggles, leans and generally handles like a wayward shopping trolley [] I'm hoping for something of a total transformation of the handling. It's also understeering at the moment so that needs to be cured as well.

Got a track day coming up in April and it handles nastily on the road, let alone on a track !

I will of course keep you all posted as to the outcome.

Cheers - Gary

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: franklin

If you are replacing spring plates you may want to upgrade to ERP plates with Heim joints. Have attached a photo. Follow the thread:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?perpage=20&threadid=207216&pagenumber=5

That won't work. You have to go to coil overs to use the 935 style spring plates as they have a billet insert into the torsion tube to locate the springplate. There is no torsion bar in this set-up and the insert is to take pressure/load off the four mounting bolts on the springplate cover. You also have to reinforce the rear strut towers if you go to coil overs.

What you want to do is replace the OE rubber bushings with Neatrix rubber bushings while the torsion bars are out or, even better, replace with Elephant Racing polybronze bushings.

Do you want a recommendation for torsion bar sizes are are you relying on 9M? What have they recommended?

HTH
Richard

 

[Gary.H]

Hi Richard,

I'm following 9M's advice ( which seems to correspond with some of your own - see Lowering an SC thread [] ) for a fast road/occasional track day car, which is.

3.2 Carrera Club sport front and rear dampers. 22/21 front/rear anti-roll bar ( new bushes ), 26mm rear torsion bars ( Turbo ), new spring plates with Neatrix bushes - oh and the turbo steering arm upgrade.

ps Did I mention I'm determined to get it to handle []

As I mentioned any advice on setup greatly received.

Cheers - Gary

 

[twinny]

RB - This thread has saved me starting one.

Having now got the engine and gearbox working well (253bhp/220lbs/ft) I was going to turn my attention to the handling and stopping, not for track days just a really sound road setup.

I would like to do the thing progressively rather than in one expensive hit. Bearing in mind I have a Targa what would you suggest and in what order.

By the way I had the car up on the ramp last week and my local independent said all everything looks fine from an MOT/standard set up point of view.

 

[Guest]

If you really want a Targa to handle well, there is some extra chassis bracing you can do. If you search under Tyson Schmidt on Pelican you can see what he did to his old Cabrio ("Scruffy"), otherwise its just the same as a coupe IMHO.

The problem in doing it progressively is that you have to keep pulling things apart and putting them back together which is either repeated cost or hassle if you do it yourself. I would (in hindsight) save pennies and do it all in one go. The key decision though is whether to stick to std torsion bars as its the rear torsion bars in particular that hke up the cost/difficulty. Although it adds to cost, I think the rear springplate bushings should be replaced in cars of our vintage. They are key to the rear toe and camber settings and unless there is a stable base to work from, you cannot get stable predictable handling from the rear end. If you replace the bushing, then this is the time to do rear torsion bars. Otherwise you have to do all the ride height, corner weights, alignment again. Changing to gas pressure Bilsteins will also affect ride height a little and can necessitate another round of height, weights and alignment so ideally do that at the same time also.

I think Gary will have a great road car set-up, but if I was doing a car only for the road I would use softer shocks. I like the Koni reds but the OE Boge are also fine. Stiffer shocks are great for body control on the track but do not make a comfortable touring car. I like the polybronze bushings for precise location and ride comfort. The rest kind of depends on budget and preference. If you like the handling balance, leave the spring rates and roll bar rates alone. If you think it understeers then increase the size of the rear anti-roll bar.

Brakes you can do in steps - pads and fluid, discs, hoses - see how it goes and stop if you are happy. I think 3.2s have fantastic brakes for the road, they just lack capacity for track work.

What else? Get bigger wheels? better tyres?

RB

 

[twinny]

Thanks RB.

What about turbo tie rods to start with? I have been told these help with the turn in. At speed, mine turns in fine then as the steering loads up it goes a little light then loads up again almost as if the tyres are breaking adhesion. I have had the alignment done so it's not that. I have new Conti's all round on 6's and 7's running a 26mm spacer on the rear and 9mm on the front. Interestingly as the last set of rears wore out the handling was spot on - very progressive. Unfortunately couldn't get the MOT man to see it! The car now seems very susceptible to changes in tyre pressure

A friend suggested a full top plate tie rod to keep everything running true. What do you think?

 

[bruceb]

Gary

this is the exact same setup I have just had done on my car, first impresssions on the road are its slightly stiffer but not certainly not harsh compared with the standard setup. My first track outing is in April so a real impression of the improvements will be gained then in.

I had trouble sourcing the rebound/bump specs for Porsche OEM club sport dampers and eventually went with a recommendation from my Garage. The bump settings I eventually went for are just slightly higher than the Bilstein HD's but with much higher rebound settings. So the car is not harsh over bumps but much more controlled and less inclined to wallow

good luck

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: twinny

Thanks RB.

What about turbo tie rods to start with? I have been told these help with the turn in. At speed, mine turns in fine then as the steering loads up it goes a little light then loads up again almost as if the tyres are breaking adhesion. I have had the alignment done so it's not that. I have new Conti's all round on 6's and 7's running a 26mm spacer on the rear and 9mm on the front. Interestingly as the last set of rears wore out the handling was spot on - very progressive. Unfortunately couldn't get the MOT man to see it! The car now seems very susceptible to changes in tyre pressure

A friend suggested a full top plate tie rod to keep everything running true. What do you think?

The only difference the turbo tie rods make is to take a tiny bit of rubber out of the tie rod end. I could not in all honesty feel any difference. They are however relatively cheap.

I have no idea what a "full top plate tie rod" is. Explain?

A mod you can feel, on the other hand, is to add steering rack spacers to reduce the bumpsteer once you lower the car. That made an immediate difference in reducing the shock thru the steering wheels of mid corner bumps.

 

[twinny]

I have a vehicle engineer pal that has done quite a bit of rallying, he also worked with a couple of rally teams. He has a full top plate tie bar fitted across the suspension turrets of his 3.2 and it feels very different to drive. I was talking to him about it and he said that many of the so called tie bars available for our cars just don't work correctly as they only fit onto one of the bolts. A full plate fits right across the turret tying everything together.

Interesting to hear about your tie rod experiences. Talking to my local independent, most of the track day cars they work on have this mod straight away.

 

[Gary.H]

BruceB,

Which track day are you attending ? I was going to do the evening session, April 5th at Brands, but the car will be at 9M that week. So I think I'll do the all day on the 25th instead - novice session as I've not done a track day before

Any track day advice ? I've already been advised to drop the tyre pressures 5psi all round - do half a dozen laps and then see whether they've come back up to normal pressure.

Cheers - Gary

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: twinny

I have a vehicle engineer pal that has done quite a bit of rallying, he also worked with a couple of rally teams. He has a full top plate tie bar fitted across the suspension turrets of his 3.2 and it feels very different to drive. I was talking to him about it and he said that many of the so called tie bars available for our cars just don't work correctly as they only fit onto one of the bolts. A full plate fits right across the turret tying everything together.

Interesting to hear about your tie rod experiences. Talking to my local independent, most of the track day cars they work on have this mod straight away.

Ok, its a strut brace. The Weltmeister brace I have does this by attaching to the strut top bolts in additoin to one of the 3 little bolts. Mine is promised to someone else but if that falls thru it will be advertised here. You are right, most braces just stop the strut towers from spreading apart. Still, I struggled to feel the difference even with the brace that ties in the struts. I have done a lot to the front of my car and it has great front grip and turn in for an old thing, so maybe all the increments add up. BTW, I am moving to monoball top mounts and a triangulated brace - primarily to get more camber but also more precision.

Yes, most everyone does the tie rods (and strut braces for that matter) but that doesn't make it right or guarantee a big improvement.

 

[twinny]

Fair point RB. Thanks for the advice.

 

[bruceb]

Gary

I'm at Castle Coombe care of our hosts on the 1 April.

For your first track day I would stick with the factory tyre pressure settings to start 29/36 f/r IIRC. I used these pressure for quite a few events with Bridgestone S02's and had no problem at all with excessive tyre wear or bad handling. I think its important to keep the car predictable to start with so my suggestion is to keep to the road settings that you will be familiar with.

As I got faster with a bit of experience I did notice the tyres going off slightly as they got warmer, but this was not really a problem. All I do now is to drop the cold pressures 2psi all round as a precaution. Not very scientific but it seems to work.

On a practical note I always take my wheels off before a track day and check over the tyres for nails etc and remove the brake pads for a general clean up. Also make sure that you have decent brake fluid. There are many good products about and each to their own, but I have had no problems with Motul 600 so far with standard brakes.

Keep the engine oil level about half full on the dip stick and take some top oil as well

There is also a very good list of do's and dont's in the track day section of Porsche Post

enjoy your day!

 

[Andy Tims]

ORIGINAL: bruceb

Gary

I'm at Castle Coombe care of our hosts on the 1 April.

For your first track day I would stick with the factory tyre pressure settings to start 29/36 f/r IIRC. I used these pressure for quite a few events with Bridgestone S02's and had no problem at all with excessive tyre wear or bad handling. I think its important to keep the car predictable to start with so my suggestion is to keep to the road settings that you will be familiar with.

As I got faster with a bit of experience I did notice the tyres going off slightly as they got warmer, but this was not really a problem. All I do now is to drop the cold pressures 2psi all round as a precaution. Not very scientific but it seems to work.

If your pushing even remotely hard you can expect at least a 6 - 10 PSI gain from cold to hot, so a 2PSI drop too start with may be a bit conservative. Just keep checking you hot pressures ASAP when you come in to the pits.