Rear suspension rot

[sulzeruk]

Afternoon all, I have been removing the rear suspension on an S2 this morning (with the aid of a Stihl saw!) and found to my horror that the bonded rubber mounts for the alloy arm and also the the top mounts that bolt beside the gearbox cross member were not really attached to anything! The bonded rubber had pulled away from the backing plate. I have seen gearbox mounts do this before but nothing suspension related that I recall. Also, that 250 Turbo that I had just bought, the right top mount that bolts on to the big steel curved part had no alloy left on it at all, it has obviously corroded off at the mounting point and then broken up. The other side is fine strangley enough. It is worth checking yours when you are next under the car though, saves your suspension flapping about. I also noticed how wasted the steel surround around the big alloy mount at the front gets, pretty impossible to repair as well. I will snap some pictures later as it is quite interesting to see how the car is assembled and what the rot does to it!
I am going to fully refurb this axle and chuck it on to the 250 to save a bit of time, it should just fit in my gritblasting cabinet, fingers crossed!
Alasdair

 

[barks944]

Interested in those pics!

 

[sulzeruk]

Some pics of the rot! First pic is the U shaped strengthened bracket that holds the alloy main arm of the suspension on. As can be seen, the rot around the main mount is pretty bad with lots of thin metal. The sills on this car didn't look too shot as well. The strengthener with the hole in it was very thin at the top. Someone had been in there with Waxoyl or similar as you can see it in on the inner arch.

The passenger side was just as bad. The majority of the rot was at the top of the hollow part which you cannot get to when the suspension is installed! There was a full set of new geunine fuel pipes on this car so the back axle must have been off not too long ago!

The detached suspension mount. A new set of 4 mounts are nearly £240 from the OPC! All 4 mounts were like this!

It looks to me that Porsche underseal never reached around the jacking point which is why the rot is so severe, most cars I see are oing the same way!
Worth checking out your cars as when that goes, it would be a pig to repair! Getting the rear axle off is by far the worst job to do I think. Give me a water pump change any day of the week!

 

[Big Dave]

Not a pretty sight.
But as you say i believe will in the future, not be that uncommon...[8|][8|]
The suspension mount you pictured , yes ive seen lots of those detatched...
This is obviously why the 944,s are getting cheaper....[8|][8|]

 

[Northern924]

Yep same happens to the 24S as as well, the 44 is suffering the same fate, as the cars start to be neglected the price plummets because people are running them into the ground just like they used to with the 24.
Sadly the reg. maintainence is much higher for the 4, so poeple just aren't getting the work done.[>:]

 

[morris944s2john]

That looks scary because at the last MOT, my S2 had advisories about corrosion (not excessive) in that area. I might have to tackle that area to get it through the MOT. Access looks difficult for making decent repairs without cutting a lot of the 1/4 panels and sills away, and leaving nothing left for reference for putting it all back together in the right place again! .

Is it possible to access the area from above to make repairs to the hollow part?? I was thinking it might be easier to remove the rear seats and carpets and cut an access hole from above (and welding it back up afterwards). Or is that a bad idea because it would weaken the area too much. It seems a shame to have to cut out all that sill structure and 1/4 panel to get at the suspension mounts. You want to make a neat repair on the outside.

I am experienced in welding and panel fabrication- anyone tackled this repair have some words of advice???[:-]

 

[sulzeruk]

Hi John, I think it would be quite hard to get to the area from above. I have some sills to do soon on a car so am going to have an exploratory go at getting the suspension out and seeing what it is like in there. Should make for some entertainment! I think that most cars will be pretty much the same. I like a challenge! Welding locomotive bodywork up is much trickier!
Alasdair

 

[morris944s2john]

Thanks Alasdair- for your comments. I do want to make a permanent and strong repair. From some of your pics it looks like the top of the box section that sits above the strong U piece is the part of the inner skin of the car next to the rear seat that is covered by carpet.
I am using my experience of restoring British classic cars here- and on some, it is possible to remove some inner structure to access rear suspension mounting areas without disturbing the mount itself. Cut the rust out and weld in new steel, whilst leaving the rear suspension in place- this effectively uses the rear suspension as a jig to maintain alignment. Then the inner structure can be welded back in place- preferably plug welded, if it were possible to remove by drilling out the spot welds, and the areas painted and rustproofed.

Well, if it is not too bad on my car-just for now- I might just hide it from the MOT man and hope! (with some anti rust paint to slow the damage down).

(with plan to fix properly at a later date- my car has been off the road long enough as it is! )

Problem is my garage space- there is not enough space to remove rear suspension etc at home. Could be a future job at college (I'm on a night school for vehicle restoration).

 

[Neil Haughey]

That is really bad. TBH though its a very worrying area as my 968 failed its MoT for a bit of corrosion in that area. Luckily its only costing me a few hundred quid and was caused by an over enthusiastic MoT tester jabbing away with a screw driver. This is on a car that looked totally solid and clean underneath.

I agree with previous posts, over the next few years a lot of cars are going to be scrapped. Rebuilding is very expensive but sooner or latter the only 2 ways to get a good 944 or 968 will be to either rebuild one or buy a puka low mileage garage queen.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I agree with previous posts, over the next few years a lot of cars are going to be scrapped. Rebuilding is very expensive but sooner or latter the only 2 ways to get a good 944 or 968 will be to either rebuild one or buy a puka low mileage garage queen.

I think we need to consider why you want a 944 in the first place.

If it's as a classic car, then the restoration and running costs are extremely reasonable. Price up restoring a 944 against a GTV6, and tell me it's a problem that the sills are prone to corrosion! [8|]

If it's as a cheap way to drive a flash car, then you're in for trouble. A 944 should be considered in the same way as a similar era 911. It's an unbelievably capable car, and is at pretty much the end of it's depreciation curve. But, it is old, and will have more niggly problems that a new car. That's the price you pay for near-zero depreciation.

The cars are now nearing the point where they are needing proper restoration work, rather than basic servicing. I can't think of a car that I'd rather sink, say, £5K in restoration into in order to have a very capable Porsche classic. How many people think that £5K is worth spending on a 944, is another question though.

 

[morris944s2john]

Paul, I agree with you, and despite the fact that my S2 currently needs a mountain of work (which i will do myself) including welding, I will do this work as there was not a car in 1990 or 1996 (when I bought mine) or even today that quite has the 944's blend of qualities!

Actually, I sense an opportunity for someone to save 944's by carrying out the needed restoration work, buying them as projects possibly selling the cars on.

After all, compared to many cars of the same age the 944 rusts in very few places- wing bottoms, sills and rear suspension mounts, if most are like my car then the rest of the bodyshell is solid, sound and rust free.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

After all, compared to many cars of the same age the 944 rusts in very few places- wing bottoms, sills and rear suspension mounts, if most are like my car then the rest of the bodyshell is solid, sound and rust free.

Exactly. The problem is, people think they can drive a Porsche for silly money. A 944 was a £20k-£30K car twenty years ago, and although it's possible to buy a pretty presentable example for less than £2K it's going to cost significant money to run it. Let alone the £600 "bargain" Porsche. They also have a habit of hiding their problems, being better built than, I think, pretty much any car of the era. Can anyone think of a comparable car that rusts less? [8|]

I think the big issue might be the time people are thinking of keeping them for. Although I baulk at the bills the same way everyone does, I always think in terms of at least ten years. How you would enjoy running a 944 if you were only planning to own it for a year or two I would worry about.

 

[sulzeruk]

Paul, the cars were over 30K when new, a 1990 S2 was £36K, a Turbo was £39K. My mate bought a 1992 Diablo which had the original invoice with it. £188K!!! That was also more rotten than a comparable 944 of the time. I am finding that the flaking underseal is the biggest problem with cars. Sills are all salvageable, suspension mounts will be a challenge but nothing is insurmountable. Also, hatch seals and lights can be big culprits for letting water in. I had resealed back lights on an S2 I bought and both were leaking from a small gap in the goo that the prevoius owner had put in! I had to batter the light units off with a rubber hammer as they were stuck on so tight! Now sealed perfectly and no leak!
John, the mount area looks like it is a prefabbed part and is spotted in, looks to be about 2.5mm thick. I am going to chop out the whole area and see what holds in what. It may be worth looking into making repair section as I am sure many folk will be needing it in the years to come! Had a look on PET but there are no inner arch items available at all.
I think I need to give up my job and specialise in 944 body repairs!
Alasdair

 

[peanut]

wow thats going to give me nightmares tonight.! cheers [] nearly made me forget the spider that dropped off my head onto the table earlier eek!

I'm going to get my seats out this w/e and shovel some more sump oil and grease into the cills . Hopefully that will hold the rust at bay for a while until i get another car so I can get the S2 off the road and tackle my cills and belts

 

[Super_Marv]

Eeeep! I think they're the photos no 944/68 owner wants to see!

I've bought some Dynax Underbody wax and some Valvoline Tectyl ML for the cavities on my 968 - there's only a bit of surface corrosion at the moment, hopefully giving them a good coat of wax will prevent it from developing any further in the future!

 

[morris944s2john]

Yes, the wax protection is a very good idea- keep water and air away from the steel! Although if the area does need welding in the near future the waxoyl will need to be removed as it is flammable.

Really best to use wax protection on a newly repaired area or when the car is new and with annual top ups!

 

[peanut]

of all the cars I've welded up and restored over the years ( 7x MGB's 3x Datsun 240Z's 1x Alfasud, etc I have always been impressed at how a simple engine or gearbox oil leak has stopped rust absolutely dead in its tracks.
I've never seen any waxoil or underbody seal particularly effective once steel has started to rust. It just can't keep the oxygen out sufficiently well to prevent some oxidation taking place.
The worst of it is once you have pumped your cills and wings and box sections full of waxoil its difficult later o check if there has been any further ongoing rusting underneath the waxoil

 

[sulzeruk]

The best course of action is to repair what needs done and then look after it! No point in slapping all the prevention stuff on and then having to remove all again to get the work done! Water and moisture will always finds its way in to spoil your day. Looking at another Turbo to buy at the moment with an MOT fail, guess what, rear suspension mounts!!!! Lovely looking car though on the surface of it!
Alasdair

 

[JamesBall]

These photos and the amount of rust I am seeing on some 944s I am looking at (not that I am an expert in any way) is almost putting me off getting one. It feels like most 944s out there have only a year or two's more life in them before either needing this sort of work doing to them or scrapping. In this light, £5k+ purchase price for a nice S2 or Turbo seems like a lot.

 

[sulzeruk]

Hi James, I am looking in to trying to get a few Turbo / S2 cars in stock where this type of work has already been carried out. They may need some interior tidying, etc but will be sound bodywise and mechanically and come with new sills, etc with a photo record of work carried out. I just need to get some time to do them at the mo! Too busy scraping off paint on a bay window to keep SWMBO happy!
Alasdair