RMS........What to do about it

[Guest]

Hi folks I am a newbie here but I have been campaining on other boards for some time
now. Thought it about time I would drop this on you guys too.

.....it's yet another one of those RMS threads.
But this one has a different angle.

You've all read and heard way too much about this dreaded RMS nightmare
and many of you will have already had to endure it. Some of you have
endured it several times over.

RMS = Rear Main Seal.
Porsche AG call it the "Crankshaft Seal - Flywheel side".

The RMS can fail in your 996 C2/C4 or 986 at any time. Your car could
be barely weeks old or it could be an early 1997 model. It doesn't
matter. There are even reports of delivery mileage cars dripping oil
in the dealer showroom! The dreaded RMS failure now talked about on a
daily basis on this board or another, can exhibit itself for no
apparent reason. You may track your car or it may be a garage queen;
it could be your daily driver or just a weekender. It doesn't matter.
Why? Because none of these factors take into account a manufacturing
fault that's persisted since the first Boxter rolled out of Stuttgart.
And that's exactly what this RMS problem is: A Manufacturing flaw.

But Porsche AG won't admit to this fact. Furthermore, if your car is
out of warranty then they will often leave you with the legacy of their
incompetence by asking "YOU" to pay the hefty bill to replace the
engine seal.......and it typically takes 8 to 10 hours to perform the
repair!

If that sounds frightening, consider that it might happen again. And
again. And again. And again. Yes it's happened to my 996 5 times and I
am still counting! But that's not all, how do you feel about having to
purchase a new engine for one of these babies? Ouch! I hear you say.

The worst part about this whole fiasco is that we, the customers just
take it like a piece of cake. We bitch and moan but still go ahead and
pay upwards of £80,000 for one of these tainted automobiles. Gorgeous,
fast, stunning, jaw dropping and as exciting as they are, it is our
pockets that take the hit in the end. Isn't it about time we all
united to get something done about it?

I am asking all fellow 996 and 986 owners to support a cause to get
Porsche AG to acknowledge this fault and do something about it. All
you have to do is display the "Porsche owners RMS Club" in your forum
postings. A good place for it is in your signature or as your avatar. By displaying this
image, it symbolizes your support to bring to the attention of Porsche
AG that as a 996 and/or 986 owner (or prospective owner), you are greatly
dissatisfied with the marque's ongoing RMS problem and that you are
formerly demanding an official statement from them as to how they intend
to compensate and/or provide warranty for past and present 996 and 986
owners, both now and in the future.

THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO SAY AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. I CANNOT GUARANTEE
IT WILL GET US ANYWHERE BUT WE HAVE NOTHING TO LOOSE.

Please feel free to use the image as you wish, either here or on any
other Forum board or whatever media you choose. All I ask is that you do
not modify it in any way.

Link to the image at:

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/rmsclub145x99.jpg

Don't just wait for it to happen to you. Do something about it NOW!
Your could be the next RMS plagued customer!

Many thanks for your valued support.

PS: for more information about this go to :http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140078

 

[Guest]

Scouser

An interesting read. Co-incidentally members of the PCGB (Porsche Club GB) are meeting with the PCGB (Porsche Cars GB) to discuss the issue of RMS today - Understandably the results of the meeting are awaited with great interest by many members.

 

[Guest]

Nigel,
VERY interesting! Please keep me posted.

Adrian,
Sorry, it is a small image but obviously too big for this board []

Anyway, I have updated it with one that will work here. Try again and many thanks for your support.

 

[mwadams]

I am interested like many others, although I have not had as many as Scouser, it looks like I will be on my first one shortly !!

Mark

 

[Grant]

I think the best way to highlight the issue would be to start an online petition with a post/ links placed on this site, Piston heads, rennlist, funcars etc. & see what sort of response you get. Just a thought ?
Regards
Grant

 

[TISPKJ]

Hi Guys, please see my post "911 / 996 reliability"

I have the RMS problem on my 98 C2, which is under warranty but as you say does not cover oil leaks, I am currently in dispute with Porsche over this as I have only done 1500 miles in it since October but now I am using it every weekend the problem has got worse.

Not sure what to do if Porsche do not remidy under the good will gesture, but either way will not be paying £90 per hour to them, I see the independants offer this at £299 fitted should push come to shove.

Lets hope we get somewhere with Porsche Club / Porsche Cars.

Regards

 

[Mark_Bennett]

Guys,

Shall we find out what the outcome of todays meeting is first?
Although the 996 register did not actively participate in the recent survey, I'm sure the fact that the engines are basically the same has not escaped the meeting attendees[]

Personally I agree, something needs to be adressed. But my concern is not so much the fact that my RMS appears to be leaking, but more what will happen to the poor person that buys a 996 or Boxster in a few years time. A £10 to 15K car that might need £1K of repairs at an undetermined time is not going to be attractive to potential owners...
And when prices fall to those levels that 944's are now, it might not be worth repairing at all...

 

[mwadams]

Any outcome from the meeting ?

Mark

 

[Mark_Bennett]

Nic Doczi and John Bond have replied with the progress of the negotiations so far, in the thread on the Boxster Area of the forum ("The answer to RMS Problems" I think it is titled).

 

[steve lyden brown]

As a recent purchaser of a 996 I am hugely concerned at the RMS problem. Furthermore, as a lawyer, I am prepared to do something about it. The trouble is that I don't know my way around the PCGB Forum, so find it difficult to either focus my activities or rally support. As it happens, I have not had any RMS problems, but God help the dealer who sold me the car and Porsche if I do have ! In the meantime, if there are any other members who wish to participate (in even a low key way) with a view to making positive progress with this obviously serious fault, then they can do two things :-

The first is to forward this email to as many other members who may have an interest in this situation, and the second is to email me and register themselves as wishing to be kept in the loop.
Steve Lyden-Brown.

 

[steve lyden brown]

Am I correct in thinking that you have heard of reputable independent Porsche specialists who can do the work required to make good an RMS failure for less than £300 ? If so, then it is critical that you identify these specialists for a number of reasons, none of which I shall bore you with now, other than to say that, if nothing else, any poor bugger who has an RMS failure can at least hope to get it sorted for not a lot of moolah.
Please respond with details. Your reply is likely to be the first step towards getting sorted a major problem that affects a lot of your fellow members.
Cheers,
Steve. ps. I don't mean to sound so bloody pompous, that is just the lawyer in me !

 

[Mark_Bennett]

Steve,

The direct link to the Thread is here ---> http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=51667

The 1st post contains links to technical descriptions/eplainations/photos of the problem. Then there is a lot of discussion, and of course finally the progess so far.

I hope that helps?

Mark

 

[steve lyden brown]

My last email was addressed specifically to TISKPJ, who ( God bless him ! ) seems to have discovered Porsche specialists who can sort RMS problems for less than £300. This seems just a tad unlikely to me, but it is too good not to follow up !
TISKPJ, we await your answer with bated breath !
Cheers,
Steve.

 

[steve lyden brown]

Hello Mark, Good man ! Good man ! I shall follow your link and explore further. Many thanks.
Cheers,
Steve.

 

[Mark_Bennett]

ORIGINAL: steve lyden brown

As it happens, I have not had any RMS problems, but God help the dealer who sold me the car and Porsche if I do have !

Steve, I think this might be being blown a bit out of proportion by it's name "Rear Main Seal".
As you can see in the link I posted above, it is just an oil leak. It MIGHT contaiminate the clutch, but equally it can go unchecked without damage. Normally the oil level is not even affected. It is just the frequency of the incidents, and the cost of fixing (plus the lack of a guaranteed permanent fix) that are the issues.

Then again maybe Porsche would take more notice if they get a load of quivering dealers phone them up after being harrangued by angry customers[]


Edit:
There may be a bit more to it after all - see a couple of posts down![]

 

[TISPKJ]

Hello Steve, took me an hour but new I had seen it somewhere ........

Page 134 of the latest Porsche post specialist cars 299 fitted.

For the record the OPC quote 4.8 hours for the job, as you know at about 90 per hour, most independants charge 50 ish so not a misprint


Regards

 

[Guest]

Mark,
It's a lot more serious than what you say. The RMS may indeed cause oil contamination of your clutch and/or flywheel. In this circumstance you would need a new clutch as any oil contamination would couse clutch slipage. It is very rare that the flywheel would need replacing but it too can become badly contaminated. But this is only the start of the problems that could ensue. During RMS replacement, the Porsche engineer uses a special mandrel tool to check the crankshaft concentricity. If it is out of tolerance specification it means the crankshaft is wobbling in the bearing (even if it is only wobbling by a few microns). This causes the seal to loosen and also has effect on the main bearing shells. The result is that oil can leak through the seal....or....residue clutch dust can enter the engine main bearing. In either case it can and ultimately (the cars are only 6 years in production remember) will cause catastrophic engine failure. This is the reason why Porsche exchange the engine when the tolerance of the crankshaft seal opening is out. Furthermore, the wobbling can transmit through to the transmission unit thus causing damage to the gearing mechanism. In fact there is some thought that a faulty gearbox could transmit similar wobbling through to the engine and thus cause the RMS problem in the first place! In all, what I am saying is that this is not a trivial issue. The RMS left unchecked may lead to engine and or gearbox failure. If your car is out of warranty then all best are off in regards to who pays for what.

My issue with this is simple: it's a manufacturing flaw not a defect. It is a designed in feature (albeit not purposely).
Given this, Porsche should be made to replace/repair these engines/gearboxes at no cost to the car owner.

Porsche's tehnical reference refers to the RMS as the "Crankshaft Sealing Ring - Flywheel Side"

Here's the official document on the subject of engine replacement concerning a failed RMS from the official
Porsche Technical Service Buletin (TSB). Note that the fact that this TSB was published, is in my eyes,
admitance to the fact that they have a problem with the RMS. Especially the "strike that, don't fix it, replace it"
statement. See below:

TSB 911(996) 1/03 1359 3/07/03

Crankshaft Seal - Flywheel Side (R&R Procedures)

Vehicle Type: 911 Carrera (996) / 911 Carrera 4 (996)

Model Year: As of '99 (X)

Concerns: Technical Manual revised for - Removing and Installing Crankshaft Seal

Information:
In the Technical Manual, Repair Group - 13 59 19 - Removing and installing Crankshaft Sealing Ring -
Flywheel Side, the following is specified in Chapter "installing the crankshaft sealing ring", on pages
13-39 page 3 under Point 2 "Check crankshaft installation position":

If the measuring mandrel (special tool 9699/1) cannot be posotioned, the crankcase must be
disassembled and the bearing housing or crankshaft refastened.

This statement is no longer valid, and is hereby cancelled.

The following applies:

- When checking the installation position of the crankshaft, if the special tool 9699/1 cannot be placed with slight resistance
in the crankshaft housing bore, the engine must be replaced with a replacement engine.

Steve,
I am not absolutely certain but having suffered record RMS replacements and having studied and researched the issue of the RMS flaw in these engines for some time, you and I should get together to talk. I am also the instigator of
the RMS Club campaign and the image (seen my avatar) being used by many 996/986 RMS sufferers across the internet forums such as here, rennlist, renntech, funcarsonline, and so on. I am currently putting together a web page for 996/986 RMS sufferers and it will host a register. Please do get in touch with me privately.
Regards,

 

[Mark_Bennett]

Berny (Scouser),

I have to admit I had never heard of such a failure until I saw your post (originally in the other thread, but after writing my one above!) And I've been following this topic for the last 5 years!

Thank you VERY much for the expanded explaination (above).
I wonder if Nic, John and David knew this before thier meeting with Porsche earlier this week.

If his is indeed the case, then I see no justification for Porsche expecting you to pay for the new gearbox (as you sid in the other thread they are asking you to do).

Please keep us informed!

 

[steve lyden brown]

Thank for your message, TISKPJ. That it what we need in this situation- good, helpful and well informed guidance on how to get the problem rectified once the RMS fails. Many sufferers of the problem will be mightily relieved to hear that they can get it put right for not a lot of wedge. Of course, getting a positive response from Porsche themselves is quite a horse of a different colour, but I think that we are at least starting balls rolling, if not actually kicking them well down Porsche's throat !

Without being a mega pain in the butt, can you submit the specialist's details in full. I ask this since I cannot refer to the current Porsche Post, having giving it and the last half dozen issues to a pal who wants to find out how much to ask for his 1998 996 Coupe now that he is selling it for a Cayenne. He then, being a complete twot, managed to leave 'em all in the back of a taxi !
Cheers,
Steve.

 

[steve lyden brown]

Hello Bernie,
Re RMS problems - this message is for you.

I shall most certainly get in touch with you privately once I work out how to do so ! ( for all I claim to be a lawyer and believe myself to be possessed of a mighty intellect, I am a complete
geek when it comes to trying to work out how this Forum operates ---- has anyone ? ).

In the meantime, please by all means email me directly on marlin@spugs.fsnet.co.uk and I'll be only too pleased to kick this RMS problem around with you.
Cheers,
Steve.