Roll bar
- Thread starter PJS917
- Start date
appletonn
New member
What is the point of encouraging people to contribute to this (or any forum), if when they do post something useful and constructive (thanks Peter! [
]) they are met with negative comments?!![8|]
Constructive criticism is fine, but some of the 'willy waving' on this thread (yes i mean you Simon!) is totally unnecessary and just strengthens the argument for restricting access to the forum IMHO.
Yes, some of us have far more experience than others in various areas, but sardonic put-downs and criticisms such as the ones I have seen on this thread, belong on Pistonheads, not on the supposedly friendly 944 forum!
I'll get my coat.....[8|][]
]) they are met with negative comments?!![8|]Constructive criticism is fine, but some of the 'willy waving' on this thread (yes i mean you Simon!) is totally unnecessary and just strengthens the argument for restricting access to the forum IMHO.
Yes, some of us have far more experience than others in various areas, but sardonic put-downs and criticisms such as the ones I have seen on this thread, belong on Pistonheads, not on the supposedly friendly 944 forum!
I'll get my coat.....[8|][
]
pauljmcnulty
Active member
And I'm sure there's a bloke in China who'll knock you one up for even less!
What's the real cost of getting it from the US, after all charges and tax etc? That's the only real comparison surely?
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
Hear hear! I too feel there's been a move towards a rather oppressive feeling on this forum of late (I'm talking generally here, and just about this thread or any one person in isolation). I think is a great shame - this was the very best place for discussing 944's on the net, where new owners and veterans would help one another out, but over the last few weeks it seems to have changed for the worse.
Constructive critiscm is to be encouraged but it is not necessary to be rude whilst giving it - emails and forums are difficult things to get right at times, and the tone can be misinterpreted very easily, but a little thought before hitting the reply button is all that is required. Can we please just remember the old saying "opinions are like a***holes, everyone has one and they usualy stink" and move on.
I have always felt strongly that this part of the club forum should be open to everyone, but if the decline continues I cannot see that it would leave much of an alternative for the powers that be, and that would be a very sad day indeed.
Peter, I'm very sorry for adding an OT post on this thread. I think it's great that someone is passionate enough to make something special for our cars and this should be applauded.
Hilux
New member
I disagree Peter and see the decline in interest as follows.
If you put your head up above the parapet with a product then be prepared for a critique as well as praise.
CONSTRUCTIVE cricism is useful for two reasons, it promotes a discussion and imparts knowledge.
If a product is potentially to be made available to others then (just like you would check out a new car or just like you would research a new product such as brake pads) it is open for peoples opinions. I have seen disparaging remarks with regard to peoples tyre and pad choices but no-one took offence. In fact there was a very strong critique of a chap who recently started posting (944turboman???) and if I recall correctly there was a bit of a `gang` mentality in those that answered him.
I will have to admit (personally) that this forum has touch of the thought police about it unlike others I attend and contribute to. I do consider that it is somewhat neutered and full of "the 944 is still the best performing/handling car in the world bar none" mentality when they are not.
I am more than happy for people to discuss (and yes, disparage) my opinions and suggestions for these places are for debating. There is definitely a soul less lack of humour here which wasnt the case when I joined.
If you really want to learn how a forum can have fun then join the Westfield forum (definitely the best on the web by miles and miles) [can I say that [&:] ?]and especially when they and the Cateringvan club forum `blatchat` start slinging brickbats at each other. They never get out of their trees with it and apart from some teddy`s thrown out of the pram (and some tw*ts taking it too seriously and resigning) no harm is done.
Same with Pistonheads [can I refer to them [] ?] although you do get the typical "my scooby has a bigger wi**y than yours club member [can I say that [] ?] p*ssing people off all the time (They are still annoyed that J Palmer has barred them from Bedford Autodrome [] )
Ho hum, I`ll still be around watching and commenting......................if thats ok?
If you put your head up above the parapet with a product then be prepared for a critique as well as praise.
CONSTRUCTIVE cricism is useful for two reasons, it promotes a discussion and imparts knowledge.
If a product is potentially to be made available to others then (just like you would check out a new car or just like you would research a new product such as brake pads) it is open for peoples opinions. I have seen disparaging remarks with regard to peoples tyre and pad choices but no-one took offence. In fact there was a very strong critique of a chap who recently started posting (944turboman???) and if I recall correctly there was a bit of a `gang` mentality in those that answered him.
I will have to admit (personally) that this forum has touch of the thought police about it unlike others I attend and contribute to. I do consider that it is somewhat neutered and full of "the 944 is still the best performing/handling car in the world bar none" mentality when they are not.
I am more than happy for people to discuss (and yes, disparage) my opinions and suggestions for these places are for debating. There is definitely a soul less lack of humour here which wasnt the case when I joined.
If you really want to learn how a forum can have fun then join the Westfield forum (definitely the best on the web by miles and miles) [can I say that [&:] ?]and especially when they and the Cateringvan club forum `blatchat` start slinging brickbats at each other. They never get out of their trees with it and apart from some teddy`s thrown out of the pram (and some tw*ts taking it too seriously and resigning) no harm is done.
Same with Pistonheads [can I refer to them [
] ?] although you do get the typical "my scooby has a bigger wi**y than yours club member [can I say that [] ?] p*ssing people off all the time (They are still annoyed that J Palmer has barred them from Bedford Autodrome [] )Ho hum, I`ll still be around watching and commenting......................if thats ok?
appletonn
New member
ORIGINAL: Hilux
I disagree Peter and see the decline in interest as follows.
If you put your head up above the parapet with a product then be prepared for a critique as well as praise.
CONSTRUCTIVE cricism is useful for two reasons, it promotes a discussion and imparts knowledge.
If a product is potentially to be made available to others then (just like you would check out a new car or just like you would research a new product such as brake pads) it is open for peoples opinions. I have seen disparaging remarks with regard to peoples tyre and pad choices but no-one took offence. In fact there was a very strong critique of a chap who recently started posting (944turboman???) and if I recall correctly there was a bit of a `gang` mentality in those that answered him.
I will have to admit (personally) that this forum has touch of the thought police about it unlike others I attend and contribute to. I do consider that it is somewhat neutered and full of "the 944 is still the best performing/handling car in the world bar none" mentality when they are not.
I am more than happy for people to discuss (and yes, disparage) my opinions and suggestions for these places are for debating. There is definitely a soul less lack of humour here which wasnt the case when I joined.
If you really want to learn how a forum can have fun then join the Westfield forum (definitely the best on the web by miles and miles) [can I say that [&:] ?]and especially when they and the Cateringvan club forum `blatchat` start slinging brickbats at each other. They never get out of their trees with it and apart from some teddy`s thrown out of the pram (and some tw*ts taking it too seriously and resigning) no harm is done.
Same with Pistonheads [can I refer to them [
Ho hum, I`ll still be around watching and commenting......................if thats ok?
Paul, the trouble is that if 'newbies' perceive the forum as too intimidating and thus do not want to stick their head "above the parapet" to tell the 'experts' what they have planned for their prized new S2 etc, for fear of being made to look like an idiot by a self proclaimed 'expert' without the people skills to communicate and share said expertise, then we will quickly not see any newbies and the forum will wither away, with just us oldies chunnering away about how the S2 is better than the Turbo ad nauseum....[8|][
]I originally came to this forum before I bought my car as a point of research and read up on what to avoid etc. We need the right mix of banter, info, personal pics and general project updates etc. If managed ( and I use the term very loosely ) correctly then it will serve as the shop window for the club and encourage newbies to partake?
The 'unique way that the club is affiliated' will always mean that the forum will have a certain degree of censorship, I guess...[
]
pauljmcnulty
Active member
Let's be fair, this guy showed up on the PCGB forum, and then proceeded to start insulting members and generally winding people up. Most of the time in barely readable English. Personally I don't care if the door hits people like him on the way out. [
] The first thing to learn on any forum is that some people actually do know more than you and you can benefit from their freely-given experience. If you think that was gang-mentality then you should look at the way other forums behave!I don't get this at all. Apart from Brett, and his few cronies, we've had almost no problems during the last year that I've been part of the Admin team. Out of tens of thousands of posts we've only had to deal with a handful, and even then it's either a friendly word or editting something to remove adverts, swearing, porn etc. I'm very grateful for the way people behave on this forum, and it makes our job pretty straightforward. Above all it's a Member's forum first and foremost and members will always have a say in how it's run, but I think we've a good compromise between it being boring or turning into another Pistonheads. I reckon we moderate less here than any other forum I use by some margin. That's due to the attitude of the forum users, so thanks guys and keep it up.
Regarding this thread, I've not been following it closely. Browsing through quickly it seems to me that some people want to buy something, others think it's either not a good product or it's too dear. Well, if you're not buying it then move on, if you want one then get it and move on! [8|]
Thought Police signing off.....[&:]
Hilux
New member
I quite agree. People commented either way as part of the discussion. Others reading it will then be able to make a considered judgement.
Paul, the trouble is that if 'newbies' perceive the forum as too intimidating and thus do not want to stick their head "above the parapet" to tell the 'experts' what they have planned for their prized new S2 etc, for fear of being made to look like an idiot by a self proclaimed 'expert' without the people skills to communicate and share said expertise, then we will quickly not see any newbies and the forum will wither away, with just us oldies chunnering away about how the S2 is better than the Turbo ad nauseum....[8|][
I originally came to this forum before I bought my car as a point of research and read up on what to avoid etc. We need the right mix of banter, info, personal pics and general project updates etc. If managed ( and I use the term very loosely ) correctly then it will serve as the shop window for the club and encourage newbies to partake?
The 'unique way that the club is affiliated' will always mean that the forum will have a certain degree of censorship, I guess...[
I know exactly what you mean but on other forums its advice people want (and opinions) and if all participants are `restrained` in critique or adverse comment then the forum is the loser in my opinion.
Anyway I`ve no axe to grind and repeat my apology if I have offended anyone, as I said before its not in my nature and only reiterate that the main problem was that the aforementioned roll hoop and its properties was perhaps not described well or properly.
Nuff said. [
]I don't believe I have posted on this thread, and I have no intention of posting on its true topic and haven't even looked at the pictures of the item in question, but...
I assume I'm in the frame when it gets to frank speaking however, and certainly I was involved in the incident specifically highlighted above . I make no apology for that, as that specific user repeatedly posted incorrect information and reacted very negatively to being corrected. One key purpose of a forum such (in my view at least) as this is to share technical knowledge such that new and prospective owners can gain understanding and help in the decision to buy a 944, or with one they have just bought. As such I believe that it is essential that mis-information is shown to be such as soon as possible, both to ensure someone whi has no better information to go on does not make a poor decision and also for the credibility of the forum.
That aside I think there also has to be room to discuss things, and discussion needs negative as well as positive comment otherwise it is sycophancy. Lastly there needs to be some banter.
I don't think I'm unfriendly to new people. I was recently accused of disagreeing with everything someone posted and took the time to go through every one of their posts and confirm that I had in fact disagreed with 2 points, and not in an adversarial way either. I don't consider that excessive, and to be blunt if what we're saying is that people have to pussyfoot around rather than offer an opinion different to that posted by someone else then I have no interest in being part of it. I don't however suffer fools gladly and pretty much without exception when somebody starts with insults when they are corrected they are making a fool of themselves in my book.
I don't really agree that there is a decline, and to be blunt I'm surprised to see you post that you think there is, Peter. If that is how long-term members that I have known for some time and respect see things however then I will review my future contribution to the forum.
I assume I'm in the frame when it gets to frank speaking however, and certainly I was involved in the incident specifically highlighted above . I make no apology for that, as that specific user repeatedly posted incorrect information and reacted very negatively to being corrected. One key purpose of a forum such (in my view at least) as this is to share technical knowledge such that new and prospective owners can gain understanding and help in the decision to buy a 944, or with one they have just bought. As such I believe that it is essential that mis-information is shown to be such as soon as possible, both to ensure someone whi has no better information to go on does not make a poor decision and also for the credibility of the forum.
That aside I think there also has to be room to discuss things, and discussion needs negative as well as positive comment otherwise it is sycophancy. Lastly there needs to be some banter.
I don't think I'm unfriendly to new people. I was recently accused of disagreeing with everything someone posted and took the time to go through every one of their posts and confirm that I had in fact disagreed with 2 points, and not in an adversarial way either. I don't consider that excessive, and to be blunt if what we're saying is that people have to pussyfoot around rather than offer an opinion different to that posted by someone else then I have no interest in being part of it. I don't however suffer fools gladly and pretty much without exception when somebody starts with insults when they are corrected they are making a fool of themselves in my book.
I don't really agree that there is a decline, and to be blunt I'm surprised to see you post that you think there is, Peter. If that is how long-term members that I have known for some time and respect see things however then I will review my future contribution to the forum.
pauljmcnulty
Active member
Nicely put, Nick. I've been trawling through a list of several hundred new Club members from the last couple of months to manually upgrade their forum status and access. It's been a surprise just how many people have been forum members and then joined the Club. In fact, the forum is arguably a bigger recruiter for the Club than anything else we do, and is pretty cost efficient as well.
The real eye-opener for me is that there are hundreds of forum members who never post. There are people here who have been members of the forum for years, my database goes back to 2003, who are still logging in regularly but don't actively contribute. Why shouldn't people be allowed to read and learn without being subjected to threads that just become abusive?
I think we do ourselves a disservice if we consider allowing this forum to be anything less than the most mature, considerate and helpful Porsche forum available. Yes, it's hugely frustrating when someone asks a question that could have been easily answered with a brief search, but we need to remember that many new users are as new to forums as Porsche ownership.
I've stuck my neck out to support the independance of this forum enough times that you know where I'm coming from. We need contributers like Fen and 944man because they bring experience. We need total mechanical idiots like me to ask the questions that others are too embarassed to own up to. It all adds up to what must be the most accessible and balanced 944 forum out there.
I make no apologies for trying to keep it that way, and if you think that it could be done better then I wish you'd either call to discuss it, or volunteer to help administrate it!
I do disagree about the "degree of censorship" comment though. Aside from the obvious, for instance libel or porn, there's nothing that can't be discussed here. It's all about tone, not content, which is why we consider it worth fighting for. [
]Neil Haughey
New member
IMHO this forum has had freer speech these past couple of years then pistonheads for example which will not let ppl post negative things about a trader/garage/shop under their name and shame rules.
Is it me but I can't really see what all the fuss is about? I have taken plenty of stick on this forum over the years but I have never taken it personally, are we not perhaps looking a bit to hard to come up with reasons to explain some of the phenomena Paul talks about.
Is it me but I can't really see what all the fuss is about? I have taken plenty of stick on this forum over the years but I have never taken it personally, are we not perhaps looking a bit to hard to come up with reasons to explain some of the phenomena Paul talks about.
944 man
Active member
Im feeling harshly criticised. I havent had enough time to read or post here over the last few days, hence the brevity of the posts that I have made. I have said that its too expensive in my opinion, because it is far, far too expensive for what it is. Arguments about whether itll actually work as intended I have kept away from. Paul, the cost of the shipping is of little consequence: labour rates in America are high compared to here and I clearly havent suggested that anyone import one. The point, clearly, is that in a market where production costs are high and where all aftermarket Porsche parts are overly expensive, a similar item is available for far less. Rollcentre cages arent fantastic, but they offer a full national specification two-part cage for the same price. I dont think that expressing an honest opinion should be described as willy waving and I do not accept that I should keep my opinion to myself simply because I am not in agreement with everyone else.
Tam Lin
New member
I must say, as a relative newcomer to this forum, I find the level of knowledge very refreshing. It is a club site, and therefore feels a bit "clubby", but to me as an outsider, I never thought it unfriendly. At least the level of knowledge seems to me to be far higher than anywhere else on the 944 front: PH has suffered from the I've-bought-my-first-Porsche- how-do-I-make-it-as-fast-as-a-McLaren brigade, Pelican is constantly on the theme of "how can I rebuild a 16v head for 50 USD", and Rennlist re-defines "clubby" in a whole new way. In fact, I wish there was a way of indexing the recent better posts on here..they would make good Technical Notes for those of us who are not newbies, yet who would never claim to have the wiki-level of knowledge of some on here.
pauljmcnulty
Active member
Group hug! [
]My point about the US option is that it's not really like for like. I regularly get asked why I charge a higher hourly rate than some people in my area, it's because I pay tax, have public liability cover, am qualified, don't fly-tip etc. You need to factor everything in when comparing prices.
I think you need to quote the price fully inclusive of VAT, delivery etc.for anything, and the shipping costs and taxes if it's from abroad. Otherwise it's like airline price deals where you don't have a clue what the real cost is until you've filled in 6 pages of information. [
]Well what a lot of fuss over a roll bar. First things first, thank you all for a good laugh some people really do take things far too seriously[8|][8|][8|][8|].
If you think this bar is too expensive I have a solution"¦..don't buy it. You can do like I did, spend time with a reputable roll bar manufacturer, design and spec one, use MSA approved seamless tube, leave your car with them for 2-3 weeks and get them to make you a bespoke one cheaper. It's that simple.
As for those that think it is not strong enough, fine, I don't care what your opinion is. I don't ever remember writing that the design was carved in stone and can't be changed. The idea for the bar was mine, the designer/manufacturer made it to a spec they are happy with, they even put stickers with there name on it. (If you want to talk to me I will tell you who made it) they however would never have made it had I not requested it so will only sell it through me. Stupidly I thought some people on here might be interested in it, I never said it was the best solution, and I never said it was the only solution. It works for me, It works for MSA scrutiners and it works perfectly for the hill climb and sprint class that I enter that means the interior has to remain in place.
In future I will keep my ideas and modifications to myself for fear of offending anyone!!!!!
Oh, As for the one made in the USA, try getting it past UK MSA scrutineers[][][]
If you think this bar is too expensive I have a solution"¦..don't buy it. You can do like I did, spend time with a reputable roll bar manufacturer, design and spec one, use MSA approved seamless tube, leave your car with them for 2-3 weeks and get them to make you a bespoke one cheaper. It's that simple.
As for those that think it is not strong enough, fine, I don't care what your opinion is. I don't ever remember writing that the design was carved in stone and can't be changed. The idea for the bar was mine, the designer/manufacturer made it to a spec they are happy with, they even put stickers with there name on it. (If you want to talk to me I will tell you who made it) they however would never have made it had I not requested it so will only sell it through me. Stupidly I thought some people on here might be interested in it, I never said it was the best solution, and I never said it was the only solution. It works for me, It works for MSA scrutiners and it works perfectly for the hill climb and sprint class that I enter that means the interior has to remain in place.
In future I will keep my ideas and modifications to myself for fear of offending anyone!!!!!
Oh, As for the one made in the USA, try getting it past UK MSA scrutineers[
][][]
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
My comments were not aimed at you Fen, in fact some of my irritation stemmed from completely unjustified attack I saw elsewhere against you. I suppose this sort of thing is inevitable as the forum grows, it's interesting that Titanic has been largely immune to this over the years (although I seem to remember we were all referred to as hairdressers or MR2 owners or some such once upon a time there, haven't the foggiest why now, but it that certainly made me laugh at the time [
] ).To reply generally to some of the other posts, I'd like to repeat what I said before, my post was not about this thread in particular, and I admit as such it was a bad place to make comment. In hindsight I was having a bit of a grump yesterday, so probably wouldn't have the same rant today, but still stand by what I said.
Hilux's response above shows that my post failed to get across the point I was trying to make, there's lots of good stuff there and I will try to respond to that one seperately.
Yam Lin's post above makes me feel much happier, if this is still a welcoming place for new vistors then I'm very happy to be wrong.
944 man
Active member
ORIGINAL: PJS917
Well what a lot of fuss over a roll bar. First things first, thank you all for a good laugh some people really do take things far too seriously[8|][8|][8|][8|].
If you think this bar is too expensive I have a solution"¦..don't buy it. You can do like I did, spend time with a reputable roll bar manufacturer, design and spec one, use MSA approved seamless tube, leave your car with them for 2-3 weeks and get them to make you a bespoke one cheaper. It's that simple.
As for those that think it is not strong enough, fine, I don't care what your opinion is. I don't ever remember writing that the design was carved in stone and can't be changed. The idea for the bar was mine, the designer/manufacturer made it to a spec they are happy with, they even put stickers with there name on it. (If you want to talk to me I will tell you who made it) they however would never have made it had I not requested it so will only sell it through me. Stupidly I thought some people on here might be interested in it, I never said it was the best solution, and I never said it was the only solution. It works for me, It works for MSA scrutiners and it works perfectly for the hill climb and sprint class that I enter that means the interior has to remain in place.
In future I will keep my ideas and modifications to myself for fear of offending anyone!!!!!
Oh, As for the one made in the USA, try getting it past UK MSA scrutineers[
The only rude/hostile/willy-waving posts have come from you, as far as I can see.
I saw a post linking to this thread and I looked because I was interested. Unfortunately I lost interest due to the excessive price and I have commented to that effect.
5 times you have commented that you think it is too expensive, I was aware of your position from your first post. Maybe if you tell me 10 times the price will come down[
][][][]Please could you tell me how I have been willy waving (perish the thought) I have not been involved in any of the arguments about it, I have answered questions about the roll bar. I was not even aware of the debate that had been stirred up until a fellow member of this forum rang me to say have you seen what's going on, you will have a laugh.
Since this thread has re-started I have answered to the fact that it is somewhat better than a chocolate teapot and once to your 5 posts about it being too expensive. This is not the right forum to discuss silly disagreements so I will drop you a PM with my phone number on so we can discuss this off line if you would like.
If I have offended anyone, it was not my intention but I am a grown man and will get over it!
Big Dave
New member
Pete.
Like i said in one of my previouis posts...Dont let the ba####ds grind you down...
I dont see anybody else coming up with any alternatives...Just objections...
Hey.
If you think its too dear then go + try + get one made cheaper.
I suspect youl struggle...???
The one from the States,, come on, get real, buy the time youv included shipping + VAT etc etc etc . Im sure it wont be anywhere near comparable cost wise....
Thats if you can get one...
The Safety devices [bolt in ]cage that EMC sell / did sell, was a lot of money..[ And they dont realy recomend the bolt in ones].But then Kev is very opinionated, as you well know...[][]
If you dont think its strong enough, the same applies..[ Go make one / get one made yourself]..
As Pete has told everybody. This rear cage / hoop was made to his spec,s ,[with input by a reputable cage manufacturer], to suit his criterior. + to be honest it is a good solution. As it can be removed from the car leaving NO marks or holes as to where its been..
Personally i have seen it in the "steel" + think its a great + strong piece of kit.
If i hadnt got a Safety Devices rear half cage, ideve bought one from him in an instant...
The harness bar IS in the correct postion..
And a diagonal bar/s can be installed if you so need...
Just my 2pce...
Like i said in one of my previouis posts...Dont let the ba####ds grind you down...
I dont see anybody else coming up with any alternatives...Just objections...
Hey.
If you think its too dear then go + try + get one made cheaper.
I suspect youl struggle...???
The one from the States,, come on, get real, buy the time youv included shipping + VAT etc etc etc . Im sure it wont be anywhere near comparable cost wise....
Thats if you can get one...
The Safety devices [bolt in ]cage that EMC sell / did sell, was a lot of money..[ And they dont realy recomend the bolt in ones].But then Kev is very opinionated, as you well know...[
][]If you dont think its strong enough, the same applies..[ Go make one / get one made yourself]..
As Pete has told everybody. This rear cage / hoop was made to his spec,s ,[with input by a reputable cage manufacturer], to suit his criterior. + to be honest it is a good solution. As it can be removed from the car leaving NO marks or holes as to where its been..
Personally i have seen it in the "steel" + think its a great + strong piece of kit.
If i hadnt got a Safety Devices rear half cage, ideve bought one from him in an instant...
The harness bar IS in the correct postion..
And a diagonal bar/s can be installed if you so need...
Just my 2pce...
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