RS Obervations

[ian harvey]

Last week I swapped my regular mags/Pirello P.zero Nero's for my track wheels fitted with Dunlop SSR's in readiness for bhp track day at Cadwell 19/05/08. It is worth reminding anyone that only uses track-focused tyres on the road that the ride and steering are very badly affected (granted 225 section fronts don't help). If, like me, you enjoy using your RS on the road then make sure that you fit appropriate tyres.

Incidentally, last year I followed popular opinion and fitted S.02's to my road wheels. After 1000 miles I sold these tyres on and was very relieved to source a futher set of Pirellis. I found the S.02's to be very greasy under cornering and even breaking and grip could disappear without any warning, especially in the wet. The fact that Bridgestones supposedly come good after a few thousand miles was of little consolation.

I appreciate that Pirelli P.Zero's are hardly the newest tyres on the market but they do suit the RS with good ride, excellent wet grip and superb feel.

Please don't follow convention and fit S.O2's. They are awful!

On another matter, I have fitted an F.V.D cat by-pass, drilled my air-box slightly, both in addition to the existing cup pipe. This combination sounds similar to previously but recorded a static result of 111 dB! These alterations are in preparation for a trip to Wayne Schofield for a tune-up. Will a Will Norman pipe help? Note that the cat by-pass is the only recent mod, the previous set up having satifield Donington noise tests on numerous quiet days. Any comments would be appreciated. I need to sort the set-up before I go to Wayne.

Ian Harvey

 

[65 mat]

I can't see that the cat-bypass will have made that much difference (to it's noise) however the drilled air box may have increased induction noise.At present my car runs both a cat-bypass,cup pipe and a Will Norman pipe and has never had any sound issues at Donington.
Get the work done over at Whayne's and then fit the Will's pipe after, as it will have virtually no effect on the tuning.
Just got my car back from Whayne's actually...he truely is a GENIUS!!! Fitted me a 993(varioram) ECU,993 throttle body,993 air flow meter,993 air box( not drilled! ) and then mapped it. The result is 325.5 BHP! It drives like a different car![]

By the way,I quite like SO2's?

 

[Tony]

Hi Ian,
agree about the Pirellis .
With regard to noise that figure does seem high. I used to run virtually the same setup and showed 105db exactly at Oulton, have since replaced the rear silencer and noise has dropped significantly - (99db at Curbro'). But, you say you've drilled the airbox 'slightly' depending how much it's drilled will effect the noise level I opened out a few of the holes and got a real howl, opening more did quieten it a bit.
Will see you at Donington & we can compare.

Tony

 

[Jamie Summers]

ORIGINAL: 65 mat
Just got my car back from Whayne's actually...he truely is a GENIUS!!! Fitted me a 993(varioram) ECU,993 throttle body,993 air flow meter,993 air box( not drilled! ) and then mapped it. The result is 325.5 BHP! It drives like a different car![]

Matt,
That's very interesting. Those are the kind of numbers you would expect from a 9m MoTeC conversion. Conventional wisdom (well, Colin's anway) has it that the standard injectors can't get you much past 300bhp before running out of fueling capacity, did Wayne change your injectors too ? I would also imagine that the work Wayne has done for you cost somewhat less than a 9m MoTeC ??? This work seems to amount to the "hot film" conversion (plus a bit of extra stuff) done on lots of 964 engines, and none seem to produce over c. 305bhp. I'd love to know how Wayne has coaxed those extra 20 ponies out !?

Anyway, my car with MoTeC + 1/2 produces a claimed 335bhp, so it will be interesting to compare the two - bring on Donnington !

Jamie

 

[oldtimer]

In response to original poster Ian Harvey and tyres.
When I first got my 964RS late 2001, Tech9's Phil Hindley recommended SO2's.
I only had one set wheels , the original mags, and used the car mainly to drive to track and do trackdays but soon found that the SO2s did not stand up to trackdays very well , the rubber appeared to melt like pizza cheese and the inside shoulder front tyres got down to the metal carcase fairly quick even tho the camber not particularly agressive.NB I'm not a particularly skilled driver !
I decided to get a second set wheels for trackdays- sourced some 996C4 complete with barely used Michelin Pilot Sport tyres MXX3? - and tried to use those tyres up on trackdays. Found that they were brilliant , stood up to tracking, didnt melt , would not wear out front shoulders , good grip in wet, quiet when road driving to track. Amazing ! Needed more grip for dry track but just could not kill the Michelins off , so went to plan B - keep the modern 996 alloys for winter , wet tracks , general road use, and use the original mags for track , kill the SO2s off on the mags ( not difficult following previous experience), fit sticky road legal tyres for dry / not too wet occasions.
Fitted some Dunlop DO1Js to the mags , now using Toyo R888s .
I eventually replaced the Michelins on the 996 'road' wheels with Pilot Sport PS2s - same good performance as the outdated MXX3 predecessors.
Never tried Pirellis on 964 , did have them (Pzero Rossos) on a 997C2S and was very happy with them on the road but only did a couple of uninsured trackdays so could not comment on how they would have done if really 'pushed'

 

[65 mat]

ORIGINAL: Jamie Summers

ORIGINAL: 65 mat
Just got my car back from Whayne's actually...he truely is a GENIUS!!! Fitted me a 993(varioram) ECU,993 throttle body,993 air flow meter,993 air box( not drilled! ) and then mapped it. The result is 325.5 BHP! It drives like a different car![]

Matt,
That's very interesting.  Those are the kind of numbers you would expect from a 9m MoTeC conversion.  Conventional wisdom (well, Colin's anway) has it that the standard injectors can't get you much past 300bhp before running out of fueling capacity, did Wayne change your injectors too ?  I would also imagine that the work Wayne has done for you cost somewhat less than a 9m MoTeC ???  This work seems to amount to the "hot film" conversion (plus a bit of extra stuff) done on lots of 964 engines, and none seem to produce over c. 305bhp.  I'd love to know how Wayne has coaxed those extra 20 ponies out !?

Anyway, my car with MoTeC + 1/2 produces a claimed 335bhp, so it will be interesting to compare the two - bring on Donnington !

Jamie

Must admit Jamie,I was rather surprised with the dyno results and I agree with what you are saying with regards to the "conventional wisdom" about injectors and hot film etc. Lets just say that Wayne (spelt correctly this time) was very reasonable with his priceing, and dyno printouts aside, I am very very pleased with the results!
You are welcome to drive my car ( on a road setting ) to compare the results with your Motec.It's all good![]

 

[SimonExtreme]

It would be interesting to see the 2 cars on the same rolling road because you cannot compare one set of results with another unless you use the same equipment, preferably on the same day!

Colin is, IMO, correct that you cannot get more than about 305-310 bhp from the standard injectors. You can work out what the theoretical maximum is based on how much fuel is available at 100% duty cycle. I am therefore guessing he is using bigger injectors. Are 993 injectors bigger?

 

[Jamie Summers]

Simon,
I agree about the futility of direct comparison based on different dynos etc, I was just interested as I had never seen a "hot film" conversion even "claim" as much as 325bhp (regardless of the reality). That said, I have not seen a hot film converison that also uses the 993 ECU - perhaps this is the subtle difference, but still not sure how the injector / fueling issue is overcome.

On the original subject of tyres I have tried a reasonable selection :-
My first 964 had P-Zeros which had excellent dry grip both road and track, though weren't great in the wet. I switched to Toyo T1-S which were much cheaper, and I think just as good, and offered better wet grip. On my track wheels I have only used Dunlop SSRs which I still think are the best compromise for wet and dry track and road - I tend to leave them on the car over the summer regardless. On my road wheels I have Marangoni Zeta Lineas which are a bargain basement tyre used by many hill climbers as they are pretty sticky. On road they have been great, though haven't done many wet miles. On a dry track they were surprisingly good, yet on a wet one they were utterly hopeless (SSRs much better despite relatively less tread).
Generally I have only ever heard good things about the S0-2s, though I don't have first hand experience of them myself. These days more and more people seem to be going for the Contisports on all Porsches.

Jamie

 

[Melv]

Used to run SO2's as my 'wets' for the Cup Car -better than Pirelli's!!

 

[ian harvey]

Please note that I am referring to P zero Rosso/Nero road tyres, not the track Corsa type. My Dunlop SSRs areOK on a wet track but not as grippy or confidrnce inspiring as the Pirelli, IMO. Chatting at trackdays suggests that I am not alone in my dislike of SO 2s.Jim of 3.2 CS fame, now 993 RS among others was not a fan. Maybe they are batch specific?

 

[ChrisW]

ORIGINAL: 65 mat

ORIGINAL: Jamie Summers

ORIGINAL: 65 mat
Just got my car back from Whayne's actually...he truely is a GENIUS!!! Fitted me a 993(varioram) ECU,993 throttle body,993 air flow meter,993 air box( not drilled! ) and then mapped it. The result is 325.5 BHP! It drives like a different car![]

Matt,
That's very interesting. Those are the kind of numbers you would expect from a 9m MoTeC conversion. Conventional wisdom (well, Colin's anway) has it that the standard injectors can't get you much past 300bhp before running out of fueling capacity, did Wayne change your injectors too ? I would also imagine that the work Wayne has done for you cost somewhat less than a 9m MoTeC ??? This work seems to amount to the "hot film" conversion (plus a bit of extra stuff) done on lots of 964 engines, and none seem to produce over c. 305bhp. I'd love to know how Wayne has coaxed those extra 20 ponies out !?

Anyway, my car with MoTeC + 1/2 produces a claimed 335bhp, so it will be interesting to compare the two - bring on Donnington !

Jamie

Must admit Jamie,I was rather surprised with the dyno results and I agree with what you are saying with regards to the "conventional wisdom" about injectors and hot film etc. Lets just say that Wayne (spelt correctly this time) was very reasonable with his priceing, and dyno printouts aside, I am very very pleased with the results!
You are welcome to drive my car ( on a road setting ) to compare the results with your Motec.It's all good![]

That's very interesting.

I took a certain young gentleman for a a tour of the GT3RS, 964RS CS with Motec and 964RS without. Came to the conclusion that the two 964RS were on a par --- on the speedo --- in terms of acceleration. Tyres and wheels identical.

Went to Croft on Thursday in 964CS. Could not pull out much of a lead on the pit straight -- despite being faster out of the chicane --- over two comparatively standard 964RS and 993RS, but kept getting them in the battle for the turn-in line --- and this mainly due to Toyos rather than normal road rubber (not my driving skill).

I'm not at all certain the CS has all the ponies it should have. But I do have the same set up as you Jamie.

See you at Donnington ! (I wonder if Will will be bringing along the tip I ordered ?)

 

[rskiwi]

Hi Ian,
I can recomend Michelin Pro Race 3 but still not as good as Tubs!
Paris Roubaix next week!
CheeRS

Jeff

 

[ChrisW]

Of relevance, there was an interesting issue on PH regarding chage up points in order the optimise where in the torque curve the next gear lands.

Might I be the problem when I change up at just shy of 6750 ?

 

[65 mat]

ORIGINAL: ChrisW

Of relevance, there was an interesting issue on PH regarding chage up points in order the optimise where in the torque curve the next gear lands.

Might I be the problem when I change up at just shy of 6750 ?

Aren't you supposed to bounce it off the rev limiter 2 or 3 times first Chris??[][&:]

By the way,with my new set up, the rev limiter is now set at 6950 for what it's worth.[8|]

 

[ian harvey]

Hi Jeff

I share your enthusiasm for Michelin Pro Race tyres and they will surely be better than tubs for Paris Roubaix. Your post made me smile, its just a shame that no-one else will know what we're on about unless, like us, they place their love of cycling slightly ahead of RS's.
Anyway, thanks to those who responded to my origional post. I wonder if the lack of interest in the suitability of track tyres for road use suggests that 964 RS's don't get much road use which would be a shame.
One last request, are the Will Norman tips readily available and ,if so, how much and where from, please?

 

[65 mat]

Yes we have drifted of topic some what haven't we Ian (apoligies). You make an interesting point actually about the lack of interest in road tyres. The fact is I put my road tyres on during winter when the car gets little use eg; to and from garage (for service ) and a fortnightly run (depending on weather) to keep everything "supple". As soon as the weather turns, then the track wheels go on and stay on until winter.If it's really psssing it down then I simply don't use the car.My emphasis is therefore on my track tyres.

 

[65 mat]

Oh and forgot to mention Ian, you can contact Will Norman via this forum...his forum name is will964.[]

 

[ian harvey]

Thanks Matt I am a club member by the way and note that you are from Yorkshire. I am from Epworth on the N Lincs/ S Yorks border, are you near?

 

[65 mat]

I'm from Barnsley Ian ( but don't tell any one[&:]). I'm over on the Wakefield side, about 5 mins from junction 38 of the M1.
Are you going to Donington on the 8th?

 

[ChrisW]

I currently have R888's on for all summer weather and a set of Cup 1 alloys with SO2's for the winter.

I also have set of 18" BBS mags which I could fit but they have SO2's all round --- and a nail in the edge of one rear !!! Used spare wanted ! 265/35 ?