RS UPGRADES

[da_gleadless]

Hi All,

I've been trawling through the Streathers Enthusiast's Guide (after weeks of waiting) and Im looking at a few upgrades maybe, along with a few DIY niggles (my oil sender needs replacing when the wather warms up).

Is it just me or does Adrian suggest most of the upgrades are a bit naff (BHP wise).

What upgrades do you all have and how do you rate them?

Its seems the easiest is weight loss via removal of the sound proofing on the floor, has anyone done this and what are the results (im reluctant as I dont want to start throwing bits of my 964 away and devaluing the car)

The brake upgrades seem an obvious bonus along with suspension, but is it really worth it if your not racing?

At present my 964 C2 has been lowered 40mm and has the CAT bypass/G cup pipe which TBH sounds great, but as always a little more BHP wouldnt go amiss (with possibly breaks/suspension to match)

Im just interested in what everyone else has done and their experience?

Cheers

Chris

 

[Steve Brookes]

Could turn into a long thread this one Chris! []

I assume you're talking about making a 964 better for the track because there's not much point turning it into an RS clone for the road. An RS is a brilliant track car but a bit compromised on the road.

 

[da_gleadless]

Hmmm....[]

this is my second attempt at this answer as i just deleted the whole of my last attempt[]

Ok, I used the term RS upgrades as this is what i see being offered or talked about mostly, though what I'm looking for is a compromise for road use as my car wont be seeing too many tracks (I will say hello during the summer trackdays to give my car a real test), but in terms of specific RS upgrades i mean brakes, suspension and fitted spoiler.

I'm really just trying to make sense of Streathers recommendations and gauge what other people have done with success, so I can have some sort of wishlist and a project for the summer (without doing a major engine overhaul)

It seems since my car has a decat pipe and cup pipe, the sensible thing to do would be to change the exhaust header and fit a performance air filter, followed by a remap of the EPROM. A further upgrade would be to change to a single mass flywheel (previous to a remap) as a compromise between dual mass and lightweight as my car is used weekly.

does this seem sensible?

I do hope it turns into a lengthy discussion, it will be nice to hear about the time and effort (no doubt cash) people have spent on the 964... it deserves it[]

 

[Steve Brookes]

At the moment the intention with mine is also to go the 'half and half' route. My list of mods to date is:

KWV3 coilover suspension
Polybushes in the wishbones and on the ARBs
Strut brace
Cup pipe between the standard cat and final silencer (102 db)
Rennline gusset plate on the engine carrier
Recaro pole positions + 4 point harnesses and harness guide bar
Removed rear seat backs
Clubsport steering wheel
Removed engine undertray
Upgraded rear brakes to the later 4 pots
Pagid grey brake pads which are put in for trackdays
996 carrera 4 wheels (bit lighter than cup 1s) with Toyo R888s for trackdays
Braided brake hoses
Higher temp brake fluid (Castrol Response super dot 4) which is changed every 3 or 4 trackdays

Since swapping the original 2 pot rear calipers for the 4 pots, I've had no braking issues at all on track (the same obviously applies to the road) so I can't see the value in a major and very expensive upgrade to big red/blacks. Although I agree they look much better []

Also, from what I've read elsewhere there's no performance gains to be had from 'sports air filters'.

 

[da_gleadless]

Some impressive mods []...

I have a few questions if you dont mind?

How bearable is the suspension upgrade out on the road?

Did you take the rear brakes of a 993 or are they supplied OEM as brand new ( a pointer in the right direction would be handy as I only seem to find Big Reds on offer) and did you upgrade to vented discs?

Is it necessary to change the brake master cylinder and fluid reservoir for the brake upgrade?

The interior sounds amazing do you have photos of both the front and rear I can look at for reference please?

Finally, If I start to mod the car and begin to remove items like sound proofing and rear seat backs whilst adding other perfromance parts, what impact is this likely to have on the cars value (taking away from the originality and all)?

I suppose what I really need is a good book showing upgrades etc, is there something like this on the market?
(this would cut down on exhaustive questioning and I could just sit and read until I have new questions[])

On a separate note regarding air filters... you're right. The tests shown in the Streathers manual show no improvement at all from stock fitted to performance filters, though if you were going to all the trouble of changing the exhaust headers along withn the other upgrades it would be worth a go (if only to make the engine bay look a little sportier).

Once again thanks for your reply and the info, it is very much appreciated[]

 

[oldtimer]

If you are after more power , the best bang for buck comes from fitting 'hot film mass air flow meter' , I think the ECU has to be remapped to take advantage of this , generally gives another 30 bhp ie go from 250 to 280 . Most specialist independents can advise on this , expect to pay up to £1500 . Chucking out electric everything ( seats, window lifts , sunroof , aircon, rear wiper , door mirrors etc) will reduce weight but also involve expenditure on replacement stuff and you will need to keep it all in case next owner wants to revert back

 

[da_gleadless]

thanks for the tip... i'll do some research on the subject and keep you posted!

I'll have a list of wants soon and then it will be a case of prioritising them in a sensible manner so i can get them all done at the right time... cash permitting of course!

I will speaking to a garage or two soon so it will be good to see what they recommend.

I think the first thing on my list is a targa recover and refit.. not sure what the BHP gains will be though []

 

[appletonn]

ORIGINAL: oldtimer

If you are after more power , the best bang for buck comes from fitting 'hot film mass air flow meter' , I think the ECU has to be remapped to take advantage of this , generally gives another 30 bhp ie go from 250 to 280 . Most specialist independents can advise on this , expect to pay up to £1500 . Chucking out electric everything ( seats, window lifts , sunroof , aircon, rear wiper , door mirrors etc) will reduce weight but also involve expenditure on replacement stuff and you will need to keep it all in case next owner wants to revert back

Hmm, I was actually advised that the hot film MAF would not really make that much difference over the existing 'barn door' MAF, once the ECU had been remapped, certainly not enough to justify the £1500.

Taking your car to someone like Wayne Schofield for a 'live' remap, will liberate far more gee gees than the hot Film conversion would for around a third of the price. With the standard MAF plus a live remap, you should expect to see 275-280, dependant on the health of your engine.

When I had my engine rebuilt in the summer, it had RS barrels and pistons plus the RS LWT flywheel and clutch combo. Three of the pistons on one bank were rotated 180 degrees, which is supposedly a trick that the guys had used on other builds and can reduce the 'fighting' between the two banks. Only other mods were a partial decat (50% of the cells removed from the cat) and the rear Cup pipe.

At the time, I asked about fitting the 993 MAF, which is a hot wire type, to be told that there would be minimal benefit once the car was remapped - if your barn door type MAF is knackered, then it might be worth looking at, i suppose.

I am planning to go down the interior weight loss route that Steve is going, with lighter seats and ultimately, a half cage.

I have KWV3s on my car with RS alignment and it is great on the road, once you get the ride height right - imho the RS height that i was running, is too low for the KWV3s to work properly and the car can feel a little 'muscle bound' if you understand what i mean! Have raised it up by 6mm and it feels far more natural and flowing now. Still pretty stiff spring rates, but the ride is still pretty reasonable, especially once away from low speed town driving.

 

[Steve Brookes]

As Nick says the KWV3 is great on the road - sporty rather than harsh. I did a 700 mile road trip in the summer and even the wife didn't complain []

You'll find full details of my rear brake upgrade here:

http://964uk.com/html/How-tos%20-%20Brakes.htm

As you'll see it was all about replacing the weedy 2 pots that came on early C2s. The 4 pots from any 964 will bolt straight on as will the 4 pots from a 993 C4 (not from a 993 C2 though). Mine were off a 928 S4 (944 turbo will also work) and required the bleed nipples and feed pipe to be swapped round. You need to change the bias valve (55 quid) when changing from rear 2 pots to 4 pots but there's no need to change the master cylinder. If you go the big red route then it's advisable to change the master cylinder to a larger one (993 turbo one I think).

964 brake discs are vented as standard so I guess you meant cross drilled discs as an option? Unless you start upgrading to big reds you can only get aftermarket cross drilled discs and I've heard complaints about the quality of these.

 

[carreraboy]

ORIGINAL: Steve Brookes

Could turn into a long thread this one Chris! []

I assume you're talking about making a 964 better for the track because there's not much point turning it into an RS clone for the road. An RS is a brilliant track car but a bit compromised on the road.

Not really true if it's on Factory original set up. I think the problem here is many 964RS Owners have either inherited or set their car up for total track use.

My car is standard factory set up and drives lovely on the road as did my White original RS Lightweight ...... My ex-Clubbie something different though.

If you have either a LHD/RHD non tip coupe keep it as the clones are multiplying in Europe big time and non sunroof with LSD a big advantage. Good copies are making 30,000 - 40,000 Euro!

 

[Steve Brookes]

Cool....it looks like we've got Des on our side. Prices can only go up now []

 

[carreraboy]

True .... just look at www.mobile.de with 964RS Prices increasing each season and the demise of £££ the "Optik" market is in full flight. It depends how far you want to go. A ground up new build 964 Cup Car is about 50,000 -60,000 Euro maybe more, with all the spot welds C4 Boost System, etc and can be built from an early C2 Shell .... The real thing is obviously a lot more, with the new build you have a NEW CAR!

Just think any colour you like, any air-cooled engine (993 Varioram), suspension, air con, spoiler pack, livery all for the price of a new C2S or less ....

 

[appletonn]

From everything I've been told and read, togther with my own experiences, it is relatively easy to get the 964 engine up to 280-290bhp with the right combination of exhaust mods, healthy mechanicals and a live remap on a rolling road.

After that it becomes much more costly, not that anything Porsche-shaped is cheap to modify!

The RS lwt flywheel and clutch make a huge difference, both in terms of engine response to the throttle and a more focussed feel to the drivetrain - more noisy at idle, but that's not an issue!

I also fitted Wevo engine mounts to mine, which have also made a noticeable difference in tightening up the rear end and also in transmitting more nvh to the cabin - again, not an issue in a more focussed car.

I would like to get my car down to the RS weights of around 1250kg for starters and that 100kg weight loss combined with slightly more power than stock will give me the responsive road/track car I want! Changing the heavy electric seats alone, should save 30kg for the pair!

 

[carreraboy]

1250KG! You can do much better than that .... hire a skip and get the lot out.[]

 

[appletonn]

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

1250KG! You can do much better than that .... hire a skip and get the lot out.[]

[] How light is your car Des? Blows away in strong winds?!

Will be going to RS carpets and rear seat delete eventually (removed the seat backs thus far) but with the bits I've removed plus the planned stuff, I can't see much more than 100kg saving.

Might remove the rear heater blower... ... when it gets a bit warmer![8|][]

 

[da_gleadless]

Wow this thred hotted up whilst I've been working and travelling (and Thanks Neno).
Its certainly one thing owning a 964 and whilst I love every second of being in it (and walking back to it in when its parked...yes its my car![]), theres something about tinkering and improving the beaufitful beast...cant wait!

My engine is in great nick (or so it seems) as its just had a major service, a new clutch and oil pipes etc etc, so I reckon for me its going to be the a single mass or RS flywheel (possibly clutch though it seems a waste to replace a new clutch) and a remap along with some wight reduction. ( would a single mass be better since i live in london and have to deal with some amount of stop/start traffic?)

I think in time a rebuild will be on the cards. If you were going to change the exhaust header, would you do it then or in line with the remap/flywheel works?

More pressing is my leaky targa that needs recovering (the 964 is covered unless I'm driving in which case it doesn't leak...though it is a PITA)

I've had a full refit quote from southbound for £700 plus VAT, though I know I can source the parts from Forest Fine... any other suggestions?

Thanks again for the advice fellas keep it coming...

 

[turbo jonny]

Good advice above but also check out the rennlist 964 forum - search any topic and you will be amazed at the amount of stuff
is available there. I also love the KW3 set up on my targa and think that suspension should be high on the upgrade wish list.

 

[carreraboy]

ORIGINAL: appletonn

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

1250KG! You can do much better than that .... hire a skip and get the lot out.[]

[] How light is your car Des? Blows away in strong winds?!

Will be going to RS carpets and rear seat delete eventually (removed the seat backs thus far) but with the bits I've removed plus the planned stuff, I can't see much more than 100kg saving.

Might remove the rear heater blower... ... when it gets a bit warmer![8|][]

Why bother with the carpets? Rip the lot out weld in a Full cage and go for the N-GT/Cup Car look and lightness! We take the p155 out of the carpets on the 964RS Forum load of nancy boys, we going to have a shake and vac group buy soon[] (even though I own one now, but watch this space) ...... go to the AP-car-design thread I started here .. Ultimate Tuner ..... []

 

[da_gleadless]

Ok so I have a big long list for what is going to be a fairly slow ongoing project, dependant on dry days and cash.

A 964 diet seems to be a good start previous to any other upgrades (cheers for the advice fellas)

Im struggling to find some RS parts...

whats people opinoins on this and are there any alternatives?

http://www.rennspd.com/P_Detail.asp?PID=756&Task=STD

 

[Steve Brookes]

Might be worth checking with Southbound trimmers what they charge:

http://www.southbound.plus.com/southbound/products/trim-general.htm

Their prices might be competitive and less hassle than importing from the USA.

I quite like my standard door cards and find the pockets useful for storage when touring. Losing the pockets doesn't save much weight. Moving to the RS cards means losing the speakers aswell to make the change worthwhile. I've seen people fit RS cards and then put holes in them to re-mount the speakers. Defeats the object really [&:]