Service at an indy or not?

[Justin85]

Hello all,

My 1989 944 S2 was last serviced at JZM at 114k miles in early 2005. The belts etc. were done at 104k in 2000 at Swindon OPC. It has a full OPCJZM service history until 114k.

I picked up the car with 115k on it in November '05, and have taken the mileage up to 126k. Whilst I have carried out two oil/filter changes myself and had the alignment sorted out at Promax I haven't had the car serviced at an specialist.

I plan to sell the car towards the end of the summer (squashed beetle beckons) and wonder if I should get the car serviced by an independent or whether I should just carry out the basics myself (being a competent enough home spannerman), and keep the reciepts for the service items.

Will it make a difference when I come to sell? Also, should I think about getting the cambelt(s) done? They have covered 22k in 6 or so years.

Many thanks,
Justin.

 

[Lemon]

Cambelts should be every 4 years or is it 36,000 to 40,000 miles ( Iam sure someone will shout if different).

So they are well over due.

Not sure if an indy service after you doing it yourself will make much difference at this point.

Most people will see the cambelt not being done as more crucial I am sure. Something you should do pronto as if they go the bill will far outway the cost of replacement for belts etc now.

I am sure I will miss some info but guess more will follow

 

[Guest]

I would agree with the cambelts - well overdue!
Opinion seems to be 4 years or 40k miles at most, whichever comes first.
It will make a difference when it comes to sell.

 

[Guest]

Stupid question I expect, but here goes...

Belts need to be done every 40K miles or 4 years, but the belt is on the outside, so presumably not too expensive to replace. The chain also needs to be done every 40K miles, and costs more to do because it's on the inside (i'm guesing here). But does the chain suffer the same 4 year life clause - it's not rubber, so it won't go off. If you've got a car which does 2K miles / year, do you still need to do the chain after 4 years ?

 

[Fen]

The chain isn't serviced according to Porsche, but in reality it shoudl be checked when the belts are done and a new slipper or tensioner fitted as required. Most were neglected because Porsche didn't say they needed to be checked so now may well need to be replaced along with the cams. OPC history on an S or S2 is not a good thing.

 

[sawood12]

You are looking at a bill of about £350 at an independant specialist to replace your timing belt. The majority of the job is stripping stuff out of the way of the cambelt to get access than actually changing the cam belt itself which is basically a pretty simple procedure - i've done it on other cars but decided to pay an indy to do the belt on my Porsche as it looked too much of a faff removing so much stuff simply to get access. The usual process is to get the belt re-tensioned after about 1000 miles which my indy does at no extra charge.

In my opinion a well known and respected indy service history is more preferable to an OPC service history. OPC's rarely hold much interest in older cars and people they don't see as a possible new or used car customer. I carry out all my major services at a good indy but do the minor interim service myself, which is basically an oil and oil filter change as I refuse to pay £180 for that under any circumstances. The major service that my indy carries out is pretty substantial and includes an all-over mechanical check including an engine coolant concentration check and a check to assess the level of moisture absorbed by the brake fluid.

 

[Guest]

Just had my S2 cam & balance belts & rollers done by well known indie here, for £249 total.
Is that good or is it just cheaper over here? (4 hrs labour = £100).

 

[colin129]

JZM is a top place, they will tell you not only everything that needs to be done, but also give you pointers for future work, which probably does not concern you if you are looking to sell in the summer (Which is a shame [&:]). They are getting a little bit pricey now, but no more than other quality independents I'm sure and much less than an OPC, who, in reality, don't know that much about older cars anyway.

In terms of service history, personally I wouldn't touch a specialist car like ours' without a full and uninterrupted service history, but that's just, me (although I suggest that the majority of enthusiastic buyers would think the same). Having said that, if you buy without and 'start' a service history by giving a car a good going over, would this count the same, what do people think? (I brought the 306 like this, although I was assured it had been properly maintained by a mechanic in the family and it was the seller's mum's car. I gave it a good going over by a local, well established, garage and found it to be generally fit, whether I'd take this chance on a Porsche is another matter)

I have always done my cambelts at 48K miles with no problems (I'm on my 3rd change now!!) although that has aways been 4 years or less so I would probably not want to go too far beyond 4 years on a low annual mileage car.

 

[colin129]

ORIGINAL: stevep944

Just had my S2 cam & balance belts & rollers done by well known indie here, for £249 total.
Is that good or is it just cheaper over here? (4 hrs labour = £100).

4 hours labour at JZM would be £236 plus VAT, I might just get the ferry over for my next service [][][][]

 

[pauljmcnulty]

ORIGINAL: stevep944

Just had my S2 cam & balance belts & rollers done by well known indie here, for £249 total.
Is that good or is it just cheaper over here? (4 hrs labour = £100).

I can't even get a window cleaner for that money around London......[] When we had our extension last year the electrician worked out at £400 per day each for him and his apprentice []

Seriously, most indies around me seem to be about the £50 per hour plus vat mark, JZ are higher but then they are aiming to be more of an alternative to main dealers for newer models than enthusiasts for the older cars.

 

[924nutter]

If you have ever seen any photographs of 16v cams with teeth missing from the sprockets, or worn down to a barely recognisable bump you will ask yourself how the cam kept rotating and touch wood didn't jam and cause valve damage. The slipper wears and the chain goes slack, flailing about, riding up the lands of the teeth. The backlash causes unintentional and uncontrolled variable valve timing. In other words get the chains checked and carry out any remedial work. I doubt if the total bill would come to more than the cost of of 16 shiny new valves, and even if it did I woud still do it. I know it's easy for me to say when

• My turbo cab has only done 28,000
• The cambelts have just been done
• The turbo has the 8 valve head.

If you are handy with a spanner, you could do the belts. I did a 944, and despite my initial pessimism, it is actually very straightforward. Pulleys have a timing V, the backplates, once cleaned, reveal timing marks. Hilight all the marks, and line it all up before you dismanlte it. Half way there. I really didn't find it half as scary as I had been led to believe. Belt tension? To get you gently, to the service department use the 90 degrees of belt twist method to initially tension the belt. Clark's tells us that early on, this was the only method used but is risky. Have the vehicle booked in for a belt retension, then, I'm afraid, you have to pay 'the man' but you have saved shed loads. Cark's Garage (http://www.clarks-garage.com/index.htm) has a wealth of technical info and detail, including the later models with auto tensioners and Clark's even shows how to set that up

 

[zcacogp]

Belts AND rollers done for £249? That IS a bargain! I paid £700 for the same job (and a rear wheel bearing) just before Christmas ... where was this bargain to be had?

Service history. Good question. My S2 has a full service history, mainly OPC but indie in later years. I have done about 8,000 miles in it, and have changed the oil myself. I will service it myself, and keep scrupulous records of everything that has been done and the parts used. Yes, it's not as good as an indie stamp, but any loss of value on sales would be compensated for in the saving on the indie costs.

I wouldn't be put off buying a car from someone who claims to have serviced it themselves if the car supported the story he was telling and he could show receipts for parts he claimed to have used. I'd ask for an pre-purchase inspection and ask the inspector's opinion on whether it really had been serviced, but I'd be asking for this anyway.


Oli.

 

[Trackrod944]

Talking of independent workshops, I've just had a well known Porsche specialist just outside Horsham in Sussex quote me £620.57 for replacing cambelt, balance belt and tensioners! I know the jobs basically straightforward, it's just that the cam belt is the last one you get to, so the other gubbins has to come off, and that's what puts most people off. I think 629 quid puts me off even more though! Surely there must be a good Indy within 50 miles of East
Grinstead who's not going to skin me aloive for what is really a very traightforward job. Any suggestions?

 

[Hilux]

In my opinion a well known and respected indy service history is more preferable to an OPC service history

In terms of service history, personally I wouldn't touch a specialist car like ours' without a full and uninterrupted service history

I think a missed stamp or oil change 14 years ago is not an issue and to be ignored. What is important is the recent history.

If it has not got a stack of ongoing maintenance receipts from recent (say 8 years) then I wouldnt touch it even if it had a full OPC `service` history. These cars are fickle and bits wear out but if replaced and maintained on a REGULAR basis (not every service as things go wrong in between) are inherantly reliable.

A lack of receipts like bulbs, brake pads, the odd pipe etc shows that its been owned by somone who owned a Porsche but couldnt afford to maintain it. I would rather see a huge stack of bills for all the niggles that it surely will have had over recent years as it gets older and carried out by an independent specialist who knows and loves the cars inside out. Remember that if you have enough money you too can own a Porsche dealer franchise and employ technicians not always experts in the older cars.

I have always done my cambelts at 48K miles with no problems (I'm on my 3rd change now!!) although that has aways been 4 years or less

Cambelts are not only mileage affected but TIME affected and I would never ever leave any rubber composite cam belt more than 3 years especially if it is not used regularly. If it is a high days and holidays car I would change the belt every 3 years max regardless of the mileage. Chains are less affected of course.

Belt tension? To get you gently, to the service department use the 90 degrees of belt twist method to initially tension the belt. Clark's tells us that early on, this was the only method used but is risky. Have the vehicle booked in for a belt retension,

I used an indy who preps and races 924`s and 944`s who has never ever seen a cambelt that needed retensioning and now simply uses the 90 degree method for tension recheck (if asked) without issue as it approximates v v closely to the workshop tensioner. I consider that it is equally important that the belt is not too tight as it bu**ers up the tensioner and roller bearings which will seize and take out your engine but it has to be a long way slack IMO to actually jump a tooth (waits to be shouted at as a heretic [])

 

[Justin85]

Thanks for you advice chaps.

From the JZM website I see that they charge £487.63 for the cambelt change and balance, which is comparable to my local independent and the other quotes I have picked up today. Given the crucial need to get this job right and my desire to sell in the summer I think I will go with an indy rather than have a go myself.

However, they all charge about £300 for a 12k service, with the exception of JZM who want £400. I'd rather carry out the 12k service myself, keeping the reciepts etc. and saving on the labour costs for what should be fairly routine stuff, and I can't see getting the £300 back when I come to sell for an indy stamp against my reciepts etc. I have already done several oil changes myself anyway, and still have a Service Kit for the car which came from the previous owner.

I've been using the car again over the past couple of weekends with the dry and cold weather we've been having and it seems to be really trying hard to persuade me not to sell. Decisions, decisions!

Justin.

 

[sawood12]

Having the timing belt retentioned after about 1000 miles is standard practice from all of the specialists i've spoken to. In fact my specialist commented that my belt had slackened off quite alot after my last belt change. I would say that any specialist that claims this is not necessary based upon thier experience is riding their luck. It's like alot of things, just because you've got away with something hundreds of times before doesn't guarantee you'll get away with it next time. And this practice is not limited to Porsches. Timing belts i've replaced before on other makes of car I've always returned to check tension at a specified milage post belt replacement. Rubber is not a stable material - it's properties change due to a number of factors and I for one would feel alot better getting the belt re-tensioned following a replacement even if it were not necessary - the consequences if the belt were to let go just doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[Diver944]

Justin, in your locale I would recommend Olli at www.rpmporsche.co.uk

He is ex JZM, has labour rates of only £38 and has plenty of 944 experience. Menu prices are £211 for a 12k and £270 for the belts (inclusive of VAT)

 

[burrow01]

Hi,

It's a good point given the value of these cars that you can save more money on servicing the car yourself than you would make in increased value by having the car serviced by a dealer - savng £300/400 per service by doing it yourself probably outweighs the depreciation on the car over 3 years.

The only downside I can see is that you may limit the number of potential purchasers - we here all know what is important when looking at a car, but the oportunist looking for their first dream Porsche may have "fully stamped service book" high on their list of must haves, and may pass over your car in favour of a car with "Full Porsche Main Dealer Service History" written in the advert.

My 2p

Pete

 

[Fen]

I'd get a 48k service if I were you Justin. OK you might not get the money back directly, but you might find someone buys your car rather than the one down the road that has a lesser recent service if you do. Conversely if you don't make it as marketable as possible then you might find others sell before it and you then have potential advertising costs and frustration as you are stuck with a car you no longer really want that isn't selling - worth 300 of my pounds to avoid. If you really want to save money then travel. I'm sure my indie would do the work pretty reasonably while you hang around Devon for the day (with a courtesy car). He might unearth something extra that needs done, but only if it really does need done and it's better to know - plus you should get the same from any decent workshop. From memory it's about 500 notes for a belt and roller 48k service with him.

No way can anyone do belts and rollers for 249 pounds - parts alone are the bulk of that price. Perhaps belts and no new rollers was the work?

Sorry for the lack of pound sign on this keyboard.

 

[Justin85]

Thanks for that heads up on Olli at RPM Paul - will give him a bell tomorrow, as £270 for belts seems very reasonable.

I notice however that that doesn't include rollers which I can only assume are the 5? tensioners listed on ECP as;

£21.50 46.2mm smooth roller
£16.00 smooth roller for tensioner
£29.00 tensioner roller
£26.28 balance belt tensioner roller
£23.50 balance belt smooth roller

Jon Mitchell recommended that the rollers require changing every other cambelt service, so 80k - is this correct? If so, and if I can confirm that JZM changed them at 104k miles then maybe I could avoid the extra cost? Are the tensioners something which can be visually checked, or are they known to fail?

Thanks,
Justin.