Should I buy it?

[bennyboy]

Went to see a 944 Turbo today, '89 G plate, M030, Black with cream leather, 114k miles, good all round condition and up for £7500. Only really one issue - there's no log book! However, there are plenty of MOT's and a load of invoices, bills and receipts showing all the required stuff has been done. Is it a gamble? What do you think?
P.S. Only other problem is an ICE install I'll probably bin - are door cards hard to come by and expensive or not? Thanks, Ben

 

[Fen]

Impossible to say based on a brief description. It might be worth buying but equally it might not. £7.5k is not low-end for a Turbo but you won't get a perfect car for that money either.

 

[bennyboy]

Well, I checked the sills and the arches for rust - none apparent. It's had a new bumper at some stage, but couldn't see any signs of further damage. It's got 18" speedlines, upgraded brakes, nice exhaust and cup mirrors. The sunroof works and there's no evidence of leaks here or in the boot. It's only done about 5k miles in the last 3 years and runs very well.....but I'm no mechanic!

 

[Fen]

Might very well be OK. Does the air-con work? Has it had a head gasket yet? Does it look like it has just had work done to repair the sills? If so it could just be a cover-up. Any evidence it's had brake or fuel lines over the rear axle? Was it a new front or rear bumper? Did it get a cat D marker when that happened (it possibly would if it was recent and went through insurance). Has it been stored somewhere sensible over the last years of near idleness? It's been underused and that generally doesn't do these cars (any cars in fact) much good.

Door cards will be available in plenty in some colours and less so in others and they are probably under £50 each. Unfortunately Linen might be scarce, epsecially if you need them in vinyl without the 10 speaker pack.

When you say it hasn't got a log book do you mean service stamp book or V5? If it's the former then I think it's overpriced unless it has all the bills to show it has a full history and if it's the latter what is the reason for it?

The wheels will probably be Speedline replicas by Veloce (if they are genuine then buy it whatever as they are worth £££ to a 964 Turbo owner). I can't remember if I read it or if it is my supposition, but at the least I suspect that they wil be heavy, but they do look nice. I'd also question the finish and if they corrode around the little screws in the rim as a mate of mine who is a concourse chap has corrosion on a set of split rims replicas and if it happened to him it will happen to anyone. I bet they look superb on a black car though. Do they have decent tyres on or some chepo brand? 18's are getting cheaper but are still pricy.

What sort of brake upgrade has it got, big black/red?

Those mods make it sound like an enthusiast car - do you know who has owned it in the past as we might know the car? I don't want to put you off; if it comes up to snuff it sounds like a nice one but if not you could live to regret it so I'm just trying to help you ask the right questions.

 

[Diver944]

It certainly sounds reasonable from the description.

I'm presuming by log book you mean the service log and not the V5 registration document. The service invoices are the most important, especially in the last three years when it hasn't been used much. Look for regular oil changes and the belts,brake fluid and coolant should have been changed even if the mileage was low.

 

[bennyboy]

Many thanks for your replies guys, this is really helpful stuff. Yeah, I mean the service log book is missing. He has a load of old receipts and bills, some service history and most of it is fairly recent. Couldn't tell you from my brief look through last night if the brake fluid and coolant has been changed recently, or the head gasket, but I can double check if I go again. The sills don't look like they've been repainted, it was a new front bumper and he has an hpi report that does not mention category d or similar. One of the receipts is for the wheels - they are genuine speedlines and cost over 2 grand quite a while ago. The Rim bolts are not in perfect condition but there is no major evidence of actual corrosion. The rims themselves are in very good condition - only 1 with slight signs of kerbing. Out of interest, what sort of price could I get for them? Tyres are fairly unused Michelins, can't remember what type though. I can't be sure because I'm fairly new to Porsche world, but the brakes are huge red calipers and massive drilled disks, so I'm assuming big reds? I think part of the reason for the price is the ICE stuff, which I'm not interested in but it makes a nice noise and there's a fairly tidy build in the boot - but the door speaker builds are horrible. Do you think they'd be much demand for this stuff used? It really is a fantastic looking machine, sounds great (twin exit exhaust) and goes really well too. The water cooler worked after the engine was shut down and it didn't appear to overheat and oil pressure seemed ok (what should it be actually?).

As I said earlier, I'm really grateful for the help. This has been my dream for some time now and the spec of the car is exactly what I'm after. But I'm a sucker for a good-looker and I'm no mechanic, and hence the polite request for any of you experts anywhere near Enfield to come and view with me! Again, if anybody can spare an hour or so I'd be ever so grateful (and generous??!!).

 

[xenon]

Any idea what happened to the log book?

 

[Fen]

I'm not sure what the Speedlines would be worth - I thought they were more like £3k new actually.

Dunno what the ICE would be worth either - wouldn't he keep it for less money? You could probably get an invisible repair on the door cards.

The lack of service book would bother me, but otherwise it sounds quite nice.

 

[bennyboy]

I asked him about keeping the audio stuff and he's not interested. Just spoke to him, he's got the log book with the chassis number and everything, but he doesn't have the service book - but as I said, there are plenty of service records. It's been looked after by MSS auto services, anybody know them? Reg number is G585 LEA - anybody recognise it? I've got the chassis number too.

 

[edh]

To be honest, I think that they are all a bit of a gamble as they get older

And by gamble I mean that you could easily sink another 3-5k into a car like that - even a "good one" (ask me how I know [8|]). But if you go into it with that mindset, and only have to spend a grand, then you'll fell much better about it.

At the very least, get it PPI'd by someone who knows 944's inside out - anyone got any recommendations for Enfield? - RPM maybe?

 

[George Elliott]

From my experience the Service Book is worth about a fiver.

The receipts are worth - well, add them up.

If its had bodywork by an Official Porsche Centre, my experience is they have all the patter and bad workmanship. Sir. (Very important, - how could I forget).

Get some-one with 944 experience to look at it.

It sounds Ok to me but its not cheap and you'll spend a couple of £K per year on it if you do more than 5000 miles annually. But you will love it if you appreciate a quick comfy balanced safe car.

Real good ones are getting rare.

George

944T '89 Black/Linen

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

From my experience the Service Book is worth about a fiver.

There speaks someone who has never tried to sell a car without one then... I haven't either; because I wouldn't buy one in the first place unless the price was right. Rightly or wrongly people are hung up on things like service history and mileage even on 18 year old cars which are easy to clock.

From the description of this car I'd say the service book being missing is potentially significant - it shows provenance and backs up the mileage to a degree.

 

[George Elliott]

Fair point, when you come to sell it you will find its easier with the service book, - but as a guide to a good car at 18 years old it may not even be worth a fiver. I do value a bundle of receipts for a car, because they detail components and time spent at mileage points and dates.

Before I'm asked, I admit to looking for the FSH because it is a guide, and I have ring binders of "History" but it does not assure you of a good car. The receipts are a better guide which you seem to have, I reckon Service Books get falsified in many cases. An honest straight forward seller is also a good sign, and if the car drives well.

I'd check the stuff mentioned earlier, look into the sills by removing the vent grilles in the door shuts. Whats the gearchange like, door hinges like, window motors after 10 up/downs, Heater, Rear Demist, Seat adjust, Mirror adj, roof operation, Head lamp focus, Fog Lenses OK? brake feel, steering feel , full lock left/right feel OK? clutch action, gear selection, pedal rubbers look like the miles? Glove-box lid operation, Carpets dry, Panel Gaps, Dash Fit, (If its been pulled to bits by a monkey it won't be back together properly) Tool Kit / Compressor. Vac Lines, Plug Leads, Tickover 860rpm warm? Airbox condition - check the screws. Water / Oil level? Crank pressure / Cylinder Pressure readings? Oil Leaks, - take off the Tray, Wheel bearings.

George

944T

 

[Fen]

I agree that a service book can be faked (like mileage), and recent receipts are the main thing in terms of history - along with an owner you get a good feel from who has owned it for some time, but unfortunately people look for them. I'd say this car sounds like it's priced as if it has a service book. Let me put it this way - 2 identical cars next to each other and both up for the same money, only difference is one has no service book. Which do you buy? How much cheaper would you want the one without the book before you'd take it in preference? More than a fiver I'll bet!

Good list of checks George - it's the sort of thing you could note down and do quite quickly while with the car rather than just kick tyres.

If you have sufficient receipts then you could rebuild a duplicate book - those dealers / indies still in business should be happy to stamp the book if you can provide a copy of the paperwork, the problem is that when the dealers all went corporate OPC in branding they probably binned their old stamps with their individual name on it even if the same people are still in business.

 

[bennyboy]

Thanks for the comments guys. I have to be honest, I'm tending towards buying it. He has most if not all previous MOTS, showing mileage to be accurate. He's got 2 hpi checks and I've done another today and it's all good. The spec is exactly what I want and it looks, sounds and goes very well. I know these things cost money, and it'll be my second car so I can still get about if it's not working. I'm a little bit nervous of the lack of service book, but only for resale purposes really because I'm happy with the other receipts and stuff he has and I don't plan on selling it for many years to come anyway. Wish me luck!

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: bennyboy

Thanks for the comments guys. I have to be honest, I'm tending towards buying it. He has most if not all previous MOTS, showing mileage to be accurate. He's got 2 hpi checks and I've done another today and it's all good. The spec is exactly what I want and it looks, sounds and goes very well. I know these things cost money, and it'll be my second car so I can still get about if it's not working. I'm a little bit nervous of the lack of service book, but only for resale purposes really because I'm happy with the other receipts and stuff he has and I don't plan on selling it for many years to come anyway. Wish me luck!

Enfield, you say?

OK, I work in Barnet (not the other end of the universe), and have looked at a lot of 944's. Sadly my experience is S2-only, so I can't comment on turbo-specific bits, but the rest is the same (or so the forums seem to say) - body, brakes, interior, suspension, steering, gearshift etc etc etc.

If you want a hand in the looking-at then I guess I'm up for it. (Other commitments permitting, of course.)


Oli.

 

[bennyboy]

Very generous offer of you Oli. I'm in a catch 22 here though. Guy has 2 cars fro sale but says he only wants to sell one of them. He tells me he has a guy coming from Jersey to look at the other car on wednesday, but if I tell him I want it before lunch time today he'll tell this other chap not to bother - ahhhhhhhhh!! Because I'd really value your opinion!

 

[zcacogp]

Ben,

I take it that is "value my opinion" on the car, not on what to do!

Let me understand this properly - he has Car A and Car B, and wants to sell either one of them, but not both. You are interested in Car A. Jersey-man is interested in Car B. Am I right?

The fly in the ointment is that I will struggle to be able to make it to Enfield before next Monday (sorry.) I guess the question is whether the Jersey-man is for real, and if he really does show up on Wednesday (tomorrow) and he likes it (Car B, that is) then he may leave a deposit, in which case it's game over for you.

However, if he doesn't, then the field is still wide open.

Advice (and only advice). If you are new to 944's, don't rush to buy this one. It may be a corker, and you may miss out on a good car. But it may be a woof-woof, and you need to go into it with your eyes open. As a good friend of mine told me once, 'there are always more cars out there'.

I'm not trying to talk you out of buying this one - far from it. But I am trying to talk you out of making a rush (and rash) decision. You could end up doubling the purchase price of a cheap 944 in maintenance and repair in the first 12 months, and you don't want that.

Get it to a pro for a PPI before handing over greenbacks. I'm not a pro, but am happy to offer a slightly-more-than-raw-beginner opinion.

I'm happy to put Monday in the diary if this will help you.


Oli.

 

[bennyboy]

Yes I meant value your opinion on the car! What you wrote is the correct scenario. The other car is a rare turbo S and I'm pretty sure the chap from Jersey is genuine. I've been looking into 944 turbos for about 6 months now, and driven 4 or 5, so it's by no means a rash decision. I'm trying to get in touch with the chap who has looked after the car, MSS autoservices, but to no avail yet. Thanks for the offer of Monday, but I think I'll have to let him know today!?

 

[zcacogp]

Ben,

All sounds sensible ... I hope it all works out. If you have driven a handful then you should have a fair idea of how to spot a duffer from a gem. There are some good how-to-buy guides on here (and elsewhere as well) which I found very helpful, and worth using as a reference when looking at the car.

The offer of Monday remains open - just let me know.


Oli.