Still not fallen in love...

[colin129]

Well, this is going to be a difficult one to write.

I'm now into my 5th month of 964 ownership and I am still yet to warm to my new baby, is this post natal depression or something?

I guess its the procession of little niggles which I have experienced, I don't think its a bad car, but apart from the day I brought it when I took it for a little blast round the lanes and got the rear wheels chirping a few times, I'm yet to have that drive that leaves me exhausted but completely satisfied.

So far:

An oil leak (when I was assured by the trader that there were no more leaks), fixed by his mechanic (eventually) who works the night shift at PC Reading.

Cluth salve cylinder replaced (by same guy), but my first 1500 miles or so were not much fun.

Right hand turn indicator intermittant (mostly not working) - fixed by same guy.

The car is full of water, thus always full of condensation (as previously reported).

The heating and vetilation unit packed in, sorted (by same chap) by replacing the 30A fuse with a 40A fuse.

Now the fan behind the LHS of the dash squeeks most of the time, very annoying.

The ventillation unit STILL doesn't respond properly to the switch.

The mileometer and trip meter packed up (I have a feeling this happened on the 944S2 at around the same mileage - 133,579 - but it started itself again)

To cap it all, when I viewed the car, every MOT from 1995 to date were present and when I picked it up the ones from 2001 onwards had been mislaid, the trader still hasn't managed to find them. I don't know what to do about this, it certainly makes the car less desirable at resale. I am considering asking my brother-in-law, a solicitor, to write him a letter.

Nothing big, but lots of niggles, its hardly even cost me anything yet.

So you see, not much fun so far...

I am planning to take it up to JZ Machtech to sort it out, they have always given excellent service on the 944S2.

When I announced to the 944 forum thay I was looking at 964s, the RS's response was 'You'll be sorry!'.

Sorry guys but I have to say that I am a little sorry....

I hope it gets better, I'm already looking forward to the drive down to the South of France next summer.

I need some moral support

[][&:][&o]

DAM...I don't know which emotion fits!!

 

[Fred Hindle]

Colin,
I have both a 944 and a 964 and I wouldn't part with either. Two totally different drives but both give me an immense amount of pleasure whichever one I drive. Stick with it, you'll be sorry if you part with the 964, especially for one that is more modern than a 993.

Cheers,

 

[Steve Brookes]

Colin, right now I am feeling really sorry for you [&o]

I too did not fall in love straight away and at first wondered what I'd done. Unlike you though I kept my other Porsche (boxster). At first I was worried about it breaking down or doing something nasty to me on the road. And yes I found plenty of niggles (including a broken indicator stalk) and was concerned by them.

After 2 months I had warmed to it and told myself to sort the niggles when by one. Put them in order, fix them and then move onto the next. The indicator was first and was done by buying a new one and fitting it - dead easy DIY. The second was to track down the leak into the footwell. I cured it by giving the sunroof drain in the A pillar a good clean out with stiff wire. I then got rid of most of the damp that was under the carpet by pulling it back and drawing out the water from the soundproofing with newspaper (just kept putting one between the carpet and soundproofing, leave it a few days, then change it). This needs doing properly by pulling all the underlay out and replacing it but that's further down my list.

By 4 months I was besotted with it. I love how different it is to drive compared to the boxster. It's more raw, more of a handful, definitely a lot faster and sheer joy on the track. I honestly can never see me getting rid of it.

Our forum is very quiet so you might often think none of us are listening or sharing our thoughts on 964s. In actual fact, everyone is on the 964 forum on Rennlist talking and chatting about all things 964. There are often 50+ 964 users on-line at a time over there. Go and have a look and see how much love there is for these cars.

Keep your chin up, don't let the niggles get to you and look forward to the good weather next year and the opportunity of really getting to know it []

 

[smallspeed]

My 964 is currently off the road, and I miss it like crazy..
If you like i can lend you my winter-106 to drive for a few weeks, then see how much you love the 964 after that []

I'll be honest, I never had this slow burn relationship thing; I always wanted one since they first came out, and the only concern I had was wether it was going to be a big let-down, especially on my 8hr train trip to collect it from up north!.. I was absolutely blown away by it in minuites and still haven't driven anything like it

Its not the fastest car Ive ever driven, but its completely adictive and involving, especially compared with a more modern car laden with electronic gadgets and safety equipment..
Its like being trapped on a desert island with a sex starved Danni Minogue, a crate of red wine and some baby oil, versus spending the night in a hotel with Dawn French.. One is nice and comfortable and might make you laugh occasionally, while the other is going to leave you completely spent but gagging for more.. OK, there's a possibility if you push too hard you're going to die in Danni Mino.. ..I mean the 964, but what a way to go []

Stick with it, and I'm sure you will find your defining moment, possibly winding through some of the french roads in the summer.. If you're going in montpellier direction, I can strongly recommend some of the mountain roads on the run towards milau from orleans.. we even went that way on our last trip to monaco the roads are that good!..

Ben

 

[911addict]

Having owned 2 x Carrera 3.2's and 1 x 964 (albeit a turbo) and the latter having similar teething issues to you I would give the following opinion.

I sank a LOT of money and time into sorting out my car. Its great now, but it has been so much heartache. If I had my time again, after realising early on the car was not to the standard I expected, I should have sold it immediately. Cut your losses and start again. There are good cars out there.

Much better to start off with a great one than to try to make a below-par one good... unless of course you have very deep pockets and originally intended a restoration project!

 

[George Elliott]

Colin, I am in a similar boat to you.
- very interested to hear your plight, I can't get out of my 944t - the road tax expires and I should sorn it and get my 964 out but its really difficuly because of :
"Reliability type issues"
- Heater
- Clutch hydraulics
- door check strap click

"Diluted 911 experience"
- TDI engine response
- poor turning circle
- suspension / feel (compared to SC or 3.2 experience)

Still I will not give up on it yet.
I fixed the heater using tips from the forum.
I will replace slave/master cylinders on clutch.
I am opening the A-post this afternoon to weld the check-strap anchor point.
I will then replace the flywheel and get rid of the Cat'
No solution for the Turning circle yet....suggestions welcome
I intend to replace the suspension and have it set up properly....suggestions welcome - road use. PSS9 ??

I know there is a 911 in there some-where so I will not give up.
Hang in there, I think a good service specialist is your best hope - they do need a bit of looking after.

George
944t
964

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

George,

On the turning circle issue, I wonder if your car has 17" wheels fitted??? If so, there's a chance that you may have the 10mm steering stops also fitted to prevent wheel contact with the chassis. The effect of fitting the stops is to reduce the steering angle and hence increase the turning circle. An alternative might be to revert to the standard 6mm stops and fit 5mm spacers to the front wheels.

On the suspension, if you plan on road use only I suspect the PSS9s might be a bit of an overkill. Whilst they are undoubtedly very good - and adjustable - my decision was based on the fact that I would be very unlikely to EVER adjust them so I plumped for the Bilstein HDs with the H&R Green springs. This combination seems pretty popular with a lot of 964 owners whilst many others seem to prefer the Eibach springs - much depends on how much you want to lower the car.

The door stay issue seems to be a constant problem - even on 993s. I've had mine done once but it's back to clicking again. JZ told me that they suggest opening the A pillar to fix it and then weld the panel shut and repaint it but it seems a bit of a performance for what seems a relatively minor problem.

Regards

Dave

 

[George Elliott]

Dave, I have 17" Cup 1's fitted, so yes, but as regards the steering stops, I would not know. What do they look like?
I welded up the check strap on the A post this afternoon. I have yet to re-hang the door, - discovered a bit of wear on the hinge pins when I removed them so will have to wait for new ones to arrive.
The welding did not actually require the post to be cut open as I expected it would. I could see the fractures surrounding the original weld so cleaned it off, dressed the bracket back into position, (about 2mm) and welded up. I am pleased not to have had to cut it open, just hope it works long term.
I have H&R springs fitted, green colour, H&R N/C on them and also Carrera 2/4 V/A whatever all that means. Then it has height adjustable dampers which are set at 964rs ride height. This is too low, I prefer about 8mm higher, but the adj platforms look badly corroded as does the whole strut assembly. The spring damper combination is not bad on the road, - the history indicates they have about 40k miles on them. All the seals etc are good. Its a '93 C2 car.
Would appreciate your thoughts on 964 MAF upgrades (the Vitesse one gets a good write up, and the Promax one on my 944t makes it much smoother).
Wish I knew the model as well as you do!
George
944t
964

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

George,

It sounds like you have the H&R Green springs alright. The V/A relates to the fact that they are the front (Vorner) springs, the rears will likely have H/A (Hinten). A smattering of German helps with these cars!!

RS ride height is a little too low for the C2/4 because the anti roll bar drop links are the wrong shape. The RS uses different drop links and with the standard parts the operation is not as designed. You CAN change the drop links on the C2 but not on the C4 (drive shaft at the front gets in the way). I had my ride height set to about 6mm above RS height when Chris Franklin did the alignment recently.

The corroded height adjusters could be cleaned up if the shocks are otherwise functional but it's not the easiest of jobs with the struts on the car - much easier on a bench!!

I've been reading the threads on Rennlist about the Vitesse MAF and it makes quite intereesting reading. I seem to remember that ProMax were offering a MAF conversion for the 964 a little while ago but it doesn't seem to have a mention on the web site lately. Maybe Andrew could enlighten us??

Regards

Dave

 

[turbo jonny]

If i was able to add an NA 964 to my turbo ( i wish ) i would look for a car with solid engine/ trans with either a recent rebuild or good leakdown numbers , with minimal rust.Then i would fix all the smaller things i wanted ,throw out the junk, free low exhaust ,lwt clutch/flywheel, upgrade springs/shocks = brilliant car with potentail for further RS ing

I had an S2 which was a great car and i would gladly have another but not instead of a 964 !

 

[38F3E1]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

Dave, I have 17" Cup 1's fitted, so yes, but as regards the steering stops, I would not know. What do they look like?

You can't see them as in the end of the steering rack from memory. Guess work unless you take the gaiters off and know what to measure. If you have 5mm spacers on the front wheels then you probably don't have them. If there are no spacers then maybe 10mm stops but I run 17" Cup 1 wheels and get no tire rub with no spacers and 6mm stops using Conti Sports or Bridgestone. My summer set of wheels with Pilot Sport Cups do rub however so seems to depend on tire.

Ian.

 

[colin129]

Thanks for your responses guys, I'll stick with it, I can't really afford not to!

However, the current weather means I'm not driving it at the moment anyway and I think the more I drive it the more it will grow on me. When the S2 was my only car I used it in all weathers, but I vowed to keep the 964 for dry use as far as possible.

The 944S2 remains for the time being as the driver of the bus that hit me insists it was my fault......no I couldn't work that one out either [&:]. The damage is superficial, the rear PU having been dislodged by bearly 1/4 inch, but I can't really sell it like that. I now have it on a 1500 mile policy, which is very cheap, but I can't use it much.

Problem with having three cars is the RFL, 180 quid for each one soon starts to add up but it is so tempting to keep all three, or do I sell the S2 and the clattery thing and get something comfortable for everyday use? Or keep both Porsches sell the Pug and use the S2 for tooling around in?

Decisions decisions......

I have found a rather embarressing nick name for the 964. I was taking the Mrs out the other evening and it just came out "Should I take Smarty or Smokey?". So Smarty it is then, one of the brown ones I think [8|]

 

[John H]

Oh dear, someone else who has read all the purple prose and self congratulatory web ramblings. Perhaps this might help ...

http://www.arthurlea.com/Stories/911/index.htm

Happy Xmas []

 

[colin129]

Thanks for that, though I'm not entirely sure what he is trying to say.

I think the 964 is more of a comitment than the S2 & I need to spend the time learning to drive it.

What spoils the fun is the niggles, as previously described. I would expect that the eventual new owner of the S2 will also find lots of niggles, but over the years as I have grown to love & have gained deep respect for it, I don't really notice them.

Onwards and upwards!!

 

[John H]

ORIGINAL: colin129
Thanks for that, though I'm not entirely sure what he is trying to say.

I guess what I was trying to say is that the 964 is now quite an old and compromised car by today's standards, but that many owners see them thro rose tinted lenses. After I wrote that piece I persevered with the car for another six months, willing myself to fall in love with it, until I got an offer I couldn't refuse and sold it. I'm gald I bought it, glad I had the experience, glad to be able to say "I owned a 911" ... but I wouldn't buy another one.

I appreciate that saying stuff like this is heresy to the air cooled die hards, but someone has to be honest. The Cayman which replaced the 964 may not have the same "character", but it is a vastly superior car.

(Dons flame proof suit! [])

John H

 

[colin129]

Sorry, I didn't make the connection between you and the article.

However, I guess what it sounds like to me that you are saying is (and don't take this too personally, as it is a rather crude paraphrase):

"Its an old car and therefore rubbish"

This is a critism which can rightly be levied at numerous British, and otherwise, 'sports cars' of the 60s and 70s. I should know, I used to own 2 Dolomite Sprints. Quite fast and fun when they were working properly, which wasn't very often. I still remember the 11 hour journey from Manchester to London []. They were old cars and generally rubbish.

I don't really think this is a critism which can be levied at the 964, by the end of the 80s, early 90s cars were generally becoming 'modern'. I just wish it didn't leak, and the ventillation worked and the milage recorder too so I can get down to enjoying it properly.

I quite like your Cayman though [], top motor!

 

[John H]

Close [] ... what I was trying to say is "It's an old car, and things have moved a long way in 15 years"

I don't think the 964 is rubbish. My problem is that is that it did not quite live up to the hype and hyperbole for me, and worse still is that there is almost no one to have a sensible discussion with about the car. Too many of the owners treat it with religious reverence, and simply will not accept that it is now an old car, with all that that entails.

I guess I had an inflated image of what the 964 would be, and I had to adjust that image to avoid being disappointed. Once I had done so, I could appreciate the car for what it is, but I still struggled to get with the adoration that you read on the web.

To add to the heresy, I had a 968 coupe before the 964, and frankly I thought it was the better car of the two, if perhaps less charismatic. The Cayman leaves both of them for dead.

Cars have come a long way in 15 years!

[]

 

[Stewart H]

Doesn't a lot of what you're saying John, come down to whether or not you can live with an older car? If you want all of the creature comforts and the modern feel & ergonomics then you couldn't go wrong buying the car you have. I previously owned a 996 and whilst it was a fantastic car, it was basically - boring. There is a whole new generation of sports car drivers who expect the modern, mass produced feel but there are also those of us for whom the character of the car is a big part of the experience.

Would I go back to a modern Porsche? Not a cat in hells chance unless I needed it for a daily driver.

 

[John H]

ORIGINAL: Stewart H

Doesn't a lot of what you're saying John, come down to whether or not you can live with an older car?

Not entirely, I happen to like older cars, older Porsches, and am considering buying another old 924 for the fun of it.

The root of it was that I never learned to trust the 964. The car never felt like it was totally on my side, it had its own agenda. I know this is the element that the thrill seekers laud the 911 for, but it didn't work for me. If I'm making progress on a wet back road and a hazard appears I want total obedience from the wheels under me. There is enough to deal with without factoring in a car with its own mind.

This has nothing to do with age either, my 968 was of the same vintage, but I always felt I could trust it implicitly. I will admit that the 964 was much less unruly by the time I sold it, as I had done loads of work on the brakes, suspension, wheels tyres, etc, etc. I understand why some people love them, but I think I can understand why Colin is struggling with his. I'd also hazard a guess that there are many more folk like Colin and me out there, but who haven't owned up to it yet!

[&:]

 

[sawood12]

I'm not so sure things have moved on that much in 15yrs. Yes cars have become much more refined and sterile with better quality materials and gadgets galore, but from a pure driving perspective cars of the 964 era are not that much slower, and in some circumstances quicker than the modern machinery. They may be down on out and out power but with modern cars laden with heavy gadgets the out and out performance advantage is mostly erroded. They may warm your bum but that isn't going to help you on your next track-day. Sometimes I think they made more of an HP back in the '80's. For example compare a 944 turbo to a Cayman S. Both have comparable 0-60 times and top speeds but the Cayman has 45bhp more plus all the trappings of modern engine management systems, Variocam plus etc. If things had moved on significantly you'd expect the Cayman to be stretching out a significant performance advantage.

The reason I say this is that at the trackdays i've been to so far it is often the drivers of older Porsches that seem to be wiping the floor with much more modern and expensive machinery. I'm not sure why this is. Maybe it's because the drivers of the more modern machinery have more to lose if they stack their cars in the tyre wall so are holding back (which sort of defeats the object), maybe it's becasue the weight of the modern cars means they simply are not that much faster in real terms, or it could be that modern traction control system interfering with the drivers inputs actually hinders the cars progress. I don't know. But the more raw feel of my 944 is certainly one of it's main attractions and i've learned more about driving in the 4yrs of 944 ownership than in my 14yrs of previous driving.

Yep, I love the modern cars and if I had the readdies i'd be straight down to my local OPC - but i'd be hanging on to the 944 as well. I'd love to see a stripped out Cayman 'unplugged' with a GT3 engine.