Still not fallen in love...

[George Elliott]

Comments on the steering made me curious, and yes - having removed the outer end of the gaiter, I can see them.
Seems they work as "stops" as opposed to "spacers". They prevent the tie rod swivel assembly retracting into the Rack Housing.
They are coming out for sure, but I will need to check clearances following removal.
Thanks for the comments, perhaps I will like this car when it has been cured of these frustrations.

John, agree the Golf is a good form of transport, also the Cayman. Both these cars were developed after NVH became a design objective, and Customer Clinics diluted engineering flair. A 911 originated before that, and in its purest form was a shorter wheel base fast VW, but it became an icon because it was :
reliable
fast for its time
vaguely practical
attractive and unusual
quite expensive / exclusive
residually reasonable
challenging / interesting if you enjoyed driving
widely adopted for competitive motorsport
halo'd by the factory motorsport activity
continually improved, 2.0 / 2.2 / 2.4 / 2.7 / 3.0 etc......959...........997 GT2 or RS

There are new cars which are very well engineered for today, and as you say, the Golf is a top choice for getting safely, efficiently, comfortably from A to B, but I still enjoy the characteristics which make a 911 an icon. Some of them remain as characteristics of modern Porsches, but they are more compromised today. Porsche also have a kind'a cynical view of their customers, who would charge extra to supply a car in white?? No - I guess they won't go the way of Francis Barnett. They will likely end up owning the Company who makes the Golf.

The 911 is not fast (excepting turbo's) but it is some-how unique with its aircooled fan noise, smooth torquey flat 6, huge traction, wonderful turn-in, compact cabin, 5 Dials, door closing action, the slim pillars and neat quarter lights, floor hinged pedals, dry-sump engine - it matters, the art of operating the heater, the dinky fuel filler, the view of the wing tops.....I enjoy all that.

But my 911's are not fast, there are better cars, a 535d would blind them (but not my 944t - another story[8|]) I don't expect any-one else to fall for them.

Oh, have you seen the car Tuthills have built Chris Harris.......its a ............ well .........................911

Hang in there Colin []

George

944t balanced by the factory
964rs & c2 balanced by the driver

 

[John H]

Great responses! []

 

[Melv]

Colin -sort out the niggles (also look at www.porsche964.co.uk for more info), then take your car on a track day and THEN tell us what you think of it!![]

 

[Guest]

Collin,

I have to say your early experiance mirrors mine. I had a few little niggles similar to yours then two big ones but in the last 3 or so years its been totaly relaible. I honestly thought id made a big mistake when I first bought it but thats gone now.
It is an old car so be prepared that you will probably have other little issues as for driving I think these cars take a while before you can get anywhere near its limits( or more realisticaly get used to where the limits are)

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: John H

I don't think the 964 is rubbish. My problem is that is that it did not quite live up to the hype and hyperbole for me, and worse still is that there is almost no one to have a sensible discussion with about the car. Too many of the owners treat it with religious reverence, and simply will not accept that it is now an old car, with all that that entails.
[]

John
I think that was exactly the problem for me this is my first Porsche. I bought hook line and sinker the Unburstable/totaly reliable german tank imgage that Posche has as a reputation.
Now I belived this because up until the Posche I had mainly Jap cars whiich never let me down once and I treated them bad so It was entirley possible that a german car with the reputation that they have for reliability would be no problem 15 years old or not.

Then I had to replace both door check straps. odd I thought Id had cars older than 15YO and never even heard of changing a check strap. then the speedo face had all melted bugged me every time I drve at night. Again never heard of things like that. when you then speak to the same people who told me these things were bomb proof they just say oh that happend to all of them. Its almost as if they kind of accept what I would consider poor manufacturing.
when my alternator went fine thats the kind of thing I expected on an old car but every time I opened the bonnet I got petrol fume poisoning I could not help but think how the hell Porsche got this reputation. It was the little nigles that you would never hear of in a Jap car like that that got me down. all the jobs I have had to do with it that are unheard of just about anywhere else.

Now I love my car and I still smile when I walk up to it but I have always in the back of my mind a big bill could be around the corner

 

[Steve Brookes]

ORIGINAL: John H

Not entirely, I happen to like older cars, older Porsches, and am considering buying another old 924 for the fun of it.

The root of it was that I never learned to trust the 964. The car never felt like it was totally on my side, it had its own agenda. I know this is the element that the thrill seekers laud the 911 for, but it didn't work for me. If I'm making progress on a wet back road and a hazard appears I want total obedience from the wheels under me. There is enough to deal with without factoring in a car with its own mind.

This has nothing to do with age either, my 968 was of the same vintage, but I always felt I could trust it implicitly. I will admit that the 964 was much less unruly by the time I sold it, as I had done loads of work on the brakes, suspension, wheels tyres, etc, etc. I understand why some people love them, but I think I can understand why Colin is struggling with his. I'd also hazard a guess that there are many more folk like Colin and me out there, but who haven't owned up to it yet!

[&:]

John, I agree with almost all of this. My 964 was added as a consequence of a boxster igniting my love affair with Porsche. I wanted to keep the boxster and get an old 911 as toy/project/track car. In the first couple of weeks I wondered to myself what the f**k I had done. At that stage the 964 was too old and put the fear of god in me everytime I drove it. On the other hand the boxster is without doubt the most sure footed and tactile car I have ever owned. Nothing I have driven comes close to the front end grip it has and its sublime turn in.

As I briefly mentioned early on in this thread my love for the 964 stayed luke warm at best for the first couple of months as I gradually discovered all the broken and wet bits. However, as the months continued to go by the frown that I wore while driving it started to develop into a smile. Then when I had the wheel alignment problems rectified I started to grin. Then when I took it on track and experienced how much grip it had in the bends and how fantastic the brakes were, I realised what a 964 was all about and fell in love with it.

With my own driving skills I am sure that from A to B down a twisty road I would get the boxster to B quicker (and it's only a 2.7) and with little drama . However, when I get to B in the 964, my pulse will be racing and I'll grinning like a cheshire cat [].

Forget that 924 and get yourself something more challenging for the weekends []

 

[Jeff Forsyth]

John H has indeed made a several valid points. I never felt that because I bought the car I wanted, lowered and stuck to the ground as if on rails, it wasnt the car I felt was the issue it was my lack of commitment at first. I was slightly lucky because I came to cars late and therefore had little to compare it to and so wasnt spoilt by modern vehicles. Actually it was my first car.

J

 

[colin129]

Since this thread has woken up again...the saga continues...

I have to say I am enjoying driving it more now.

I currently have 'Smarty' in at J Z Machtech to sort out a few of the issues. I am convinced that some of my problems stem from the car being soaking wet inside.
e.g. new things like the seat motor now only works on one of the runners, the spoiler control unit has packed up, the front ventilation fan is squeeky (VERY annoying) and the speedo seems to have packed up now, simply can not understand this as it was fine on the journey to the garage.

They spent 30 mins of my money with a hose and someone inside the car looking for leaks and found nothing, although I have to admit I have done the same thing in the rain and found no leaks either.

To cap it all, the clutch is heavy and may need a new one, but apparently sometimes they replace clutches and they remain heavy, so I shouldn't need to worry about this yet.

Also, I still have not received the service book and the 'mislaid' old MOTs from the seller. Since he is a trader, I have decided to send him one more polite e-mail and then set my brother-in-law (a solicitor who has a reputation for sorting things out with one letter) on him.

What do you guys think the difference in value of a car with a fully stamped service book and an unbroken set of MOTs (apart from the first 2 or 3) is compared to one without? I know, and he knows, that I would not have purchased the car without these items. I was thinking at least £2K, maybe more...

Rant over, I'm sure once everything is sorted out I will feel a lot better!

 

[Mark Elder]

ORIGINAL: colin129

...What do you guys think the difference in value of a car with a fully stamped service book and an unbroken set of MOTs (apart from the first 2 or 3) is compared to one without? I know, and he knows, that I would not have purchased the car without these items. I was thinking at least £2K, maybe more...
...

For me I think this is very important, although it is slightly dependent on the mileage. ie if it is low mileage it's important to have these docs as "evidence", but if it's "typical" or high mileage then it's less important because you are not trying to validate the mileage. Nevertheless, it's all about showing how the car's been cared for. If the trader has really lost these docs, then proving how much you felt about this (with a solicitor's letter, perhaps even a "small claims" court action to recover the misrepresented value etc) will go a long way towards showing the next buyer that your story is genuine.

I think 2k is probably reasonable, but it might be higher for a low mileage car.

BTW, this is a great thread - really shows the passion around our cars - so like girlfriends....

 

[Steve Brookes]

Sound like you're getting ready to sell, Colin? [&o]

 

[Mark Elder]

ORIGINAL: brksy16

Sound like you're getting ready to sell, Colin? [&o]

Colin, maybe one option for you is to tell the trader to supply the documents shown at time of agreement or return your money in full and take the car back.

 

[colin129]

ORIGINAL: marke2

ORIGINAL: brksy16

Sound like you're getting ready to sell, Colin? [&o]

Colin, maybe one option for you is to tell the trader to supply the documents shown at time of agreement or return your money in full and take the car back.

Can I do that? I'm sure it will illicit some response though. Don't really won't give it back though.

 

[Mark Elder]

ORIGINAL: colin129


..... Don't really won't give it back though.

ah ha! - so you are smitten!

Legally it's going to depend on the contract, which is going to depend on how organised the trader is. An organised trader's contract will rule out any promise made verbally and probably anything other than legal title to the car.

Like you say it will get a response.....

 

[polar964]

Colin,
Would you still happen to have the car's advertisment details. How was the car advertised ? were the details written in the advert. For eample Porsche 964 .. blar de blar...... with fsh... and a 'complete set of MOT certs' ... If you have this sort of evidence i would have thought you are in a strong position to argue your point and make your claim!
Best of luck.

ps .... i'm sure with the right 964, which yours may well turn out to be, you'll be hook line and sinker matey!!

 

[Alexander_Drobik]

It seems to me that if you buy a car with promised documents then it should have that post-sale. Reading the issue with the car - by no means huge - are the sort of issues that irritate badly - even new cars have these.

There is no way that a 964 is as easy to live with as a new car....but if you go on track, drive the back-roads and everything works as Dr P intended then you get a different perspective. It is not in my view an everyday, park anywhere, town loving car - the newer models do that and perform elsewhere - although perhaps not quite as involving. That is the real trade-off.

But whatever the pros/cons - if a car does not have everything working well, and there is the concern that the next time it move something else needs fixing - it takes time to 'fall in love'.

Hope you get it all sorted and with the sunnier weather coming you can take it for a blast as it was designed for.

 

[George Elliott]

Colin, sorry to hear of your saga, but I would say "don't let the hassle spoil your enjoyment of the car". There can be a tendency to blame the car!
Many have bought a used car and found it had been badly accident repaired, or it needed an engine or gearbox, and that could matter more than the History.
Of course its not good enough to be told that the Records would follow, and then they don't - next time you might feel uninclined to pay the final £1k until you have them.
As suggested, dry it out and give it a further airing on a track.....its a 911 with records or not.

George
944t
964

 

[colin129]

ORIGINAL: slider

I would return the car. Without the docs noting can be assumed about the car except perhaps the worst. This kind of ploy is often used by rogues who never have any intention of giving the buyer the docs. They could have been missing or more likely show such a ghastly provenance that they are 'best mislaid'. This may explain some of the problems you've been having.

for example) - buy on condition and provenance - these are not Mondeos!

Just to put things straight, I have seen the service book, it is just that the stamp for the pre-delivery service was missing and he held on to it to get it stamped up.

In addition, I've also seem the missing MOTs as well but when I went to collect the car, they were not with the documents. He was going to have a look round for them, but has not bothered to do it yet.

I am hoping that a carefully worded letter will galvanise him in to looking for them.

 

[smallspeed]

this is a shame as it seems everything was present and correct.. I think you should be looking for 2k or the documents, and if you can back up your argument with a solicitor/lawyer then you will get some sort of response

I agree with the above comments re: condition/history over low mileage every time, and with these cars its especially important to prove its pedigree and history; less so for your peace of mind as you've seen the doc's, however not having the documents at re-sale time (should this occur) will devalue the car considerably

 

[Stewart H]

If the car and docs are kosher, I'm sure a letter from your brother-in-law will sort it out. I guess it's human nature to think that once the car has left the forecourt there is nothing else to do but move on to the next sale and it's easy to put the details to the back of your mind. Good luck Colin.