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Surely some1 has seen the 944 with nitrous on Flea Bay ?

ukmastiff

New member
I cant believe there hasnt been a discussion re the lux on E-Bay complete with
" 350 BHP nitrous ". Only stated mods being "a Wildfire headgasket and Sachs Clutch"
Maybe it just went on hehehe

So what's the practicality of this ? , brakes come to mind for starters lol

Apparently on a 98 pound per year classic policy too, I'd possibly have kept that bit quiet [:D]
 
I wasnt suggesting anyone should [:-] it's just these shall we say ' unusual 944's ' usually cause a little light hearted discussion [:D] and you have to say it is an unusual one

Regards Mas
 
I don't know when anyone mentions NOS I can't but help think 'Brett' [:D].

The horsepower claims are somewhat modest, dare I say boring in comparison. It should have at least 2000 Bhp.
 
Nitrous use is massively misunderstood.
Most people seem to think it's something to be looked down upon and will destroy an engine but it's perfectly safe.

The instalation seems ok - the best way to fit a nitrous kit is to use a microswitch that operates a latching relay only at WOT. There's no point injecting nitrous at less than WOT. It's not a good idea to try and fit a system such as you may have seen on "fast and the furious" - i.e a push button on the steering wheel. If you're injecting nitrous via a button held down by your thumb and come off the throttle momentarily you would still be injecting nitrous at a continuous flow rate. When you come back on the throttle there's obviously a lot extra nitrous in the inlet charge and that's when things start melting.

I would be very surprised if that car is actually flowing 190bhp worth of nitrous. This will be controlled by the size of the jets fitted to the nitrous and fuel solanoid.
Any standard 944 would be more than capable of taking a small shot of gas - maybe a 50hp shot or perhaps even a 75hp shot since a small shot of nitrous actually has a cooling effect on the stoichiometric charge. This means there is no risk of detonation and therefore no need to retard the timing. On larger shots then it is very neccesary to retard the timing - normaly around 1 degree retard for every 50hp worth of nitrous.

If this car really is flowing that much nitrous then you would have to switch to a different map all together in order not to melt pistons. More likely, the system is capable of flowing 350bhp but the jet sizes are a lot smaller than the owner thinks. Actually, the real limitation on flow rate is the tube that is used in the setup but that's getting further into details than is neccesary to get in to in this post.

I would actually suggest that a small shot of nitrous would be an excelent way of boosting the performance of a standard 944. Nitrous oxide is an oxidising agent - essentially it allows you to get a cleaner burn of the fuel you're already putting into the engine. There is absolutely no reason why you could put your foot down and keep it there until the bottle ran out. If you were only using a small 50 shot then a 15lb bottle would last ages and at ÂŁ85 for a refil, is only about the same as a tank of petrol.
With respect to that particular car on eBay, if the cars engine is in good condition then it certainly won't be a problem using nitrous at all. Infact, if it were to pass all the usual check points when looking for a 944 - rust, service history, interior condition etc then, providing the nitrous instalation was done propperly, there would be absolutely no reason to write the car off as a potential purchase at all.

-JC.
 
I hope I dont anger you JC but NOS systems have the reputation they do because the margins for error are quite simply small if you want to avoid damage.

a modest boost of 50hp can still do a lot of damage if not correctly installed as you say so I agree with that much but the oldest rule of thumb is what I stick too

within reason, there is no such thing as cheap bhp. building engines to take the extra stress is what really costs and to go to that effort and have it go wrong is IMO the wrong way to go.

if you want more acceleration a simpler/safer way might be to change diff/final drive ratio.

you will still consume more fuel as running higher revs by comparison but your car will feel much more lively.

I won't be doing it but I often think the 160mph capability of my own 944 T is a waste and I would prefer a lower top end for more lively gear chages earlier.

trouble is, at 135p a litre I'm not in any hurry
 
How do! Not sure why you'd think i'd get annoyed with you? There's nothing wrong with a little erudite debate, eh?

However, I would argue against your assertion that "nitrous systems have a bad reputation because the margins of error are so small". So long as you pick your jet sizes propperly there shouldn't be a problem. Nitrous systems have a bad reputation because any numpty can "have a go" for about ÂŁ300 and have destroyed perfectly good cars through their own ignorace and stupidity. It's when people who don't understand how an engine works, let alone understand nothing about how nitrous oxide has an impact on the combustion cycle start messing around that problems happen. Either that, or, those that do understand, try and push the envelope a little bit too far. ;)

There's a lot of smoke and mirrors around nitrous use. Unfortunately, much of the issue is that everyone's heard a horror story which over time becomes an urban myth. The uneducated will tell you that 944's are rubbish and 911's are awesome. Yet, those same people with such opinions have probably never driven either.

There is absolutely no reason why a bog stock 944 engine in good condition could not take a small 50 shot without any problems at all. Infact, so long as the engine isn't in the red line, you could keep your foot hard down until the bottle ran out of gas. Such a small shot has a cooling effect on the inlet charge and therefore negates any detonation problems. It's when you get into bigger shots of gas that things start getting complicated. For example, if you were using a true 200shot (by true 200 shot I mean 200bhp at the back wheels the HP rating on the jet doesn't neccesarily equate to the actual power increase at the road wheels - another common misconception) then you'd have yourself a bit of a problem...
Imagine that 200 extra bhp suddenly hitting the back wheels - well the tyres aren't going to hold out are they? She's going to spin up and step out from the rear in a big way. In this instance, you'd have to use a progressive controller to gradually turn up the nitrous boost over a few secconds. You do this by pulsing the solanoids with an electronic progressive controller. You also have the issue that different substances move at different rates - there is the risk that dumping a large shot of gas into the inlet tract will make the engine run lean momentarily which would then lead to detonation. You get around this by picking your jet sizes carefully, using a progressive controller as mentioned previously or having a 2 stage fixed hit system whereby you fire a 100 shot and then fire a seccond 100 shot or a combination of the three. However, i'm probably complicating this post more than it needs to be now...

I think so long as you can be bothered to do the neccesary research, it's no more dangerous than running a turbo or a blower. There's an awful lot of rubbish talked about nitrous. Having worked on and driven a few cars that run substantial amounts of gas I can say with authority that time doesn't seem to slow down, neither does everything go all blury like you might see in the movies, hehe! ;) I do also accept it's probably not going to be of interest to the vast majority of people. However, when we're talking about small shots it really is cheap horsepower.

Certainly interested in your idea of changing out the diff? I wasn't aware that you could get different ratios? I thought it was N/A or a Turbo back axle and "that's yer lot", so to speak?


 
On a personal note, a friend of mine owns this animal of an MGBGT V8.
This particular car is the reason I have an interest in playing with old cars at all. Infact, I built an MGB V8 which was capable of doing the same "stunt" as shown in the video.
I don't think you can ever have too much power. There's nothing more impressive to me than seeing a classic car getting it's front wheels off the deck.
If nothing else, it goes to show what can be achieved if you put your mind to it with a bit of gas, some sticky tyres and a change of underpants for later. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiDVhKpwxVM
 
I'm not sure on the diff option ratio's MGBV8! so do the research

my advice was based on an old ford I spent a crazy amount of money on.

I spent the equivalent of my 944T on an all steel 1600 engine inside an anglia and even then I ran a 4.4 to 1 diff to get the acceleration. it was like having 4 1st gears but it was done and dusted really by 100mph

I just know I would prefer to do a mod like that and keep the engine safer for long term use.

I did my degree in Coventry and was a regular at pod and know exactly where your coming from but those chaps had heaps of experience to draw upon.

If they were fitting a small shot of NOS then I can agree/trust but dialing a number from a magazine would worry me that I was going to get it right.

when it works your quite right that its a good option.

I have good friends who have ploughed small fortunes into engines and make incredible bhp through dustbin lid size turbos etc but there is always a trade off somewhere.

experience and cc's is the safest option

next time I'm at pod I will look out for the MG


 
There are plenty of people out there who have blown engines tuning their 944 turbo's and other cars too, so by this token other tuning methods are just as unsafe as NOS. I like the idea of NOS - you have an engine that is configured for the type of driving you do 90% of the time (i.e. pootling around town) with the ability to be very very exciting for 10% of the time instead of having a car that is configured to the type of driving you do 10% of the time and is compromised for 90% of your driving. And with the benefit of supercooling the intake charge you've got added safety too.

 
I used to run a 3.9 diff in my MGB GT V8 which was partly the reason my car could do wheelstands. The MGB V8 in the video is running a 3.07:1 back axle and still managing to "catch some air". It certainly brings a smile to your face when the front wheels leave the deck when you pull away from the lights.

On a serious note, if anyone's interested in going the nitrous route I would highly encourage you to get in contact with a guy called Trevor Langfield - he's written a book on the subject and is the founder of "wizards of Nos". He has a forum but web etiquette prevents me from posting it up here. Although, a brief google search will no doubt bring it up.
There are some really crap nitrous kits out there, but by the same token there are some really good ones for not *too* dissimilar money. The most important bit of the kit is the solenoids. I'm certainly not a fan of Holley solenoids, for example!

 
your arguments make a lot of sense sawood.

and I will out of pure interest be lloking at your chap trevor MGB just for a looksy.

trouble is, how do you arrive at what will be a safe dose of NOS when each engine/manufacturer is different?

seems a bit guess work and I don't wish that to sound negative.

just trying to understand what even an expert will use to ultimately deceide that even a modest increase in bhp won't push over the edge.

my 220 may handle quite a bit more if the inners of the engine are the same as a 250 S2. but I don't know if they are the same

 
It wouldn't be a very good idea to guess and hope. However, like with anything else, that's why you contact people who throw thousands into R&D for their products when you consider taking on such an instalation.

If you wanted a cylinder head porting, you wouldn't just attack it with a grinding wheel and hope for the best. You'd go and either speak to a specialist for advice, or arm yourself with knowledge before hand e.g buy a scrap head and cut it in half to see how much material you could remove. Why should a nitrous application be any different to any other project?
 
No disrespect to either NOS or the MGBV8 but neither look terribly imposing from that video. I realise it's in slo-mo and also it's a matter of horses for courses...
or 'One man's poison...'
If you get your kicks from a short stab of the throttle over 1/4 or even 1/8 of a mile then go for it....but I'd like to see that MGBV8 go around Castle Combe for example.
Now that would be interesting!!
 
Well, if you find 0-60mph in 2 secconds unimposing or 0-130mph in less than 10 secconds unimposing, then you're obviously got a lot more impressive machinery than most of us at your disposal.
I certainly wouldn't want to watch that MG go round any circuit. The diff is welded up for starters and is therefore incapable of going around anything but the most gentle of curves. It's a focused race car for 1 particular job. You'd no more take a drag car to a race track than you'd play pool with a golf club.
 
NOS is not really suited for track work which is Patricks bag, but for street driving where you are only on wot for short bursts then this has to be far more efficient than a big laggy turbo, or a large capacity and thirsty n/a car. For something like a lux or s2 with the responsiveness of a charge of NOS would step the cross-country b-road blast ability of the car right into another league.
 
I don't know when anyone mentions NOS I can't but help think 'Brett' .

Hi Neil

I remember that (before he disappeared off the forum)

1000 bhp on an unmodified auto 928 !!!!

I see the threads are still there.
 
I'm not sure if Brett achieved 1000bhp (I'm sure he would claim he did) but someone posted a few months ago that he got to 200 mph. Again, who knows.

Of course a shot of NOS at low rpm might be a good way of getting round turbo lag allowing you to run a larger turbo.
 

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