Suspension advice please

Guest · Nov 25, 2005

I'm going to need new front wishbones and struts, according to JZ (picked up at last service, but not done at the time because the bill was steep enough anyway on account of various other things attended to at the time [:-] ). Oh, and the front suspension top-mounts are iffy too.

So I'm thinking, what a great opportunity to fit Bilsteins and H&R springs, and lower the car an inch?

Two questions:
1. [Not being familiar with 993 suspension...] Is there anything else that I need to think about? Or will the dampers, springs and top mounts improve the sharpness of my car's handling, the accuracy of its steering and control of the ride without replacing anything else? Oh, I do need to keep costs down: the FD is not too happy as it is (still remembers service bill, and there's the matter of the recent repaint of the front PU - suicidal pheasant - new rear wheelarch stone foils, etc).
2. Who to get to fit it? JZ? Excellent for sure but quite expensive. Well known bodyshop in Reading that knows its Porsches)? £200 labour but can't do the pukka alignment afterwards. Northway? Not sure about cost (yet) but possibly cheaper than JZ and can do the alignment.

Views/advice gratefully received.

Stewart Rix · Nov 25, 2005

Peter
I used Specialised Paintwork (specialist body shop) in Reading (behind Porsche Centre Reading) to fit my Bilsteins. Simon from Essential Styling happened to be there one day when I was in for a pu repaint and we struck a deal (somewhere around £700 I think for the HDs) plus fitting by the guys at Specialised at a very reasonable hourly rate.

Guest · Nov 25, 2005

Thanks Stewart. It was Specialised that did my PU earlier this week. And coincidentally Simon of ESS happened to be there when I picked my car up...!

968er · Nov 25, 2005

Personally would use Carnewal for your dampers as he can supply the Bilstein HD's for about £500, a lot cheaper than any UK supplier. Wouls also consider changing the springs as you will not get the benefit of fitting new dampers if the springs are tired or not matched. I also got the H&R springs from Carnewal and the dampers and springs cost approx £700 delivered to my door.

Any competent mechanic can fit the suspension parts, it can also be done as a DIY job.

Guest · Nov 25, 2005

ORIGINAL: MoC2S

ORIGINAL: std70040

I'm going to need new front wishbones and struts, according to JZ . Oh, and the front suspension top-mounts are iffy too.

Click to expand...

I note you mention wishbones and top mounts. If you mean front control arms, then that will be an additional cost you cannot ignore. Either replace them or fit new bushes (Powerflex) as an alternative. I also don't think that new top mounts are included with Bilsteins, but please correct me if I am incorrect here ...

I would strongly advise getting it all done at a fully capable specialist with alignment facilities. JZ, Tognola for instance .... and bear in mind lowering an inch might give you some bump steer ... [:-]

cheers, Maurice []

Maurice: yes, forgot to include the wishbones, which are defo on the shopping list. I take it that 'wishbones' and 'control arms' are the same thing... (Can't you tell I'm a suspension - no, I admit it, a technical - dunderhead...?)

Robert Greaves · Nov 25, 2005

Top mounts are not included with the billies - I'm just about to have my top mounts done as they are separating - I asked the same question. Billies HD with new springs seem a good idea - Strasse quoted me £300 to fit all new suspenders and then reallign etc.

angry · Nov 27, 2005

I have had the above fitted by JZ,I also had uprated anti roll bars and drop links fitted ,along with this i had the camber adjusted(set up for the nurburgring).
I was amazed how comfortable the car still is,but the handling is now in another league.
Carnewal as said above is the best/cheapest place to get your bits from and JZ were helpful and knowledgable regarding suspension as they are linked with Manthey who race 911s in Germany.
They are slightly pricey but overall i think they are worth using.

willstatt · Nov 28, 2005

""Any competent mechanic can fit the suspension parts, it can also be done as a DIY job.""

Yes, fitting them is a DIY job, but that work will necessitate a full alignment check, which definately isn't a DIY job!!

Will

968er · Nov 28, 2005

I was only talking about the fitting, not the alignment!

Guest · Nov 29, 2005

Thanks for the replies, chaps. Any more views welcome....

Sundeep · Dec 1, 2005

if you can afford them, then the H&R's are a much better bet on a lowered 993..... nothing wrong with the Bilstein HD's I have, but then again they haven't been that amazing.... just disappointed on how they performed with the height reduction from the M030 kit, compared to the lowered H&R car I drove i.e. better bump steer and overall control from H&R, etc [

] of course depending on £ stretch you could get the adjustable H&R kit !

as for changing wishbones bushes verses poly bush replacements, opinion seems to be very divided.... so my recommendation would be a new set of RS wishbones, as although the poly bushes are cheaper, when the garage labour costs were taken into account it was then comparable to getting a new set (OPC supplied only) and don't forget to see if they give a % PCGB discount ![

]

as for the alignment, I guess that depends on the ability of the mechanic on the day ! if it works at JZ then worth continuing, even if they are a tad pricey IMHO ! although tognola is my nearest garage after some questionable work I don't use them anymore [&:]

and of course not forgetting to check those Ball Joints and Drop Links, etc.....

regards

Sundeep · Dec 1, 2005

I'm getting my posts marked !(?) [

]

oliverjamesthomas · Dec 1, 2005

Go on then, my two penneth.......

Personally, I don't understand all the talk about bump steer. I was actually laughing to myself at Brands this year, because there was a 'low ground clearance area' and my car was actually far lower than most of those in it. I was parked with the register cars on the field!!!! I don't suffer with bump steer and the car handles like a dream. I run on a Bilstein / Eibach combination, with the addition of a strut brace to tie the front end together, so we're not talking major investment here. Otherwise, everything is standard fitment, but obviously in good condition.

IMHO the strut brace made a bit of an improvement, but the major improvement was a damn good alignment by a rather fantastic chappie up here in the north. The difference was amazing and paying for the chaps time and knowledge has probably been more beneficial in terms of results than throwing a boat load of brass at the car by way of upgrades and not having such a talented bloke to fettle it.

You see, sometimes less is more and Porsche ownership needn't be that expensive......[

]

Regards

Sundeep · Dec 1, 2005

ORIGINAL: MoC2S

Some inline ...

ORIGINAL: Sundeep993

if you can afford them, then the H&R's are a much better bet on a lowered 993.....
>> H&R do a whole range of springs and shockers, the shocks are mostly rebadged Bilsteins ... the most common H&R thing on 993s is their lowering springs fitted to Bilstein HDs ... http://www.carnewal-europe.com/cpx_p93106.htm not expensive ..
but the H&R shocks and springs together make a good combo..
nothing wrong with the Bilstein HD's I have, but then again they haven't been that amazing.... just disappointed on how they performed with the height reduction from the M030 kit,
>> M030 is plenty low enough for most
Although the point was the performace of the HD's with the M030's, not bad although that may have something to do with the initial fittinf by AmDTechnik now admitting that it has been fitted incorrectly ! so they are going to fix it ..again !
compared to the lowered H&R car I drove i.e. better bump steer
>> bump steer is a function of tie rod angle, determined by ride height. Lowered cars will have bump steer unless fitted with EVo upright$$ ..
correct, which is the 'catch' when you lower ones car....
and overall control from H&R, etc [] of course depending on £ stretch you could get the adjustable H&R kit !
>> Given the budget I don't think so ! http://www.carnewal-europe.com/cpx_p93002.htm
although not quite a like for like comparison, as this link is for ALL the bits inc new anti-roill bars but if you compare the basic price of the full suspension kits then the price difference is 'interesting'
as for changing wishbones bushes verses poly bush replacements, opinion seems to be very divided.... so my recommendation would be a new set of RS wishbones, as although the poly bushes are cheaper, when the garage labour costs were taken into account it was then comparable to getting a new set (OPC supplied only) and don't forget to see if they give a % PCGB discount ![]
>> also usual sources
WHERE ? everyone seemed to be round about the OPC 'retail' price so that pcgb % was looking pretty good !
as for the alignment, I guess that depends on the ability of the mechanic on the day ! if it works at JZ then worth continuing, even if they are a tad pricey IMHO ! although tognola is my nearest garage after some questionable work I don't use them anymore [&:]
>> got to have the tools ..
more like the ABILITY to use them, which is highly questionable across certain garages!
and of course not forgetting to check those Ball Joints and Drop Links, etc.....

regards

Click to expand...

Peter, HTH !

cheers, Maurice [8|]

Peter, Hope This Helps !

regards, Sundeep [:-]

Guest · Dec 2, 2005

Thanks, guys. I thgink I'm going to go for Bilstein HDs with the H&R springs (from Gert) plus new (standard) wishbones and top mounts. That'll give a good enough result and goof VFM. I'm confident that the rest of the suspension is good nick because JZ go over the car with a fine tooth comb and would have reported anything remotely amiss (they reported a squeak from the clutch pedal; because I've never heard it, it's been left 'unsorted'...)

Decent alignment etc set-up afterwards seems to be crucial, so I'll think hard about who's to do it. Favourites for this currently JZ or ?Autofarm. Reckon I could trust OPC Reading?

oliverjamesthomas · Dec 2, 2005

It might not be the most practical suggestion but for what it's worth, if you travel for a living or fancy a trip up North, you could do far worse than use Robin at 9M racing in Warrington. Total no bulls**t approach, extremely talented, (that,in fact, is an understatement), and a really nice bloke to boot. I was gobsmacked by the transformation.

Regards

oliverjamesthomas · Dec 2, 2005

Maurice

Just to clarify, I understand the bump-steer concept and sadly had a brilliant car that was shocking for it, before seeing the light and buying a 993. The reason I don't understand the talk of it is because I don't suffer from it. The car is set at 60mm lower than standard C2S, so let's call that a little over 2" in English[

]

As per my last post, the candidate for the recommended suppliers sticky post is Robin at 9m Racing in Warrington. I spent three very pleasurable hours with him in the workshop and can honestly say he's an absolutely top chap. He strikes me as the type who has forgotten more than many will learn and who chooses to just get on with achieving the results and leave the bluster to some of the others in the industry; (just my opinion). To strike an analogy and for those who know him, he's as straight and honest as 'Big' Dave Forrest at Strasse, which in my book goes a long way.

Regards

oliverjamesthomas · Dec 2, 2005

Maurice

Thought that'd make you raise an eyebrow, but yes, the car is significantly lower than an RS and also the 993 GT2 it was parked next to in the workshop. I wouldn't advocate the height as fantastic for one minute, especially up here in the proper north...[

]... where the roads are just about good enough for a horse and dray!!!!! It is actually bordering on the impractical. One thing it does though is focus the mind to avoid potholes, speed bumps, insects, etc and the handling after Robin's set-up is truly epic!

If you're putting a new suppliers list together, I'll nominate Strasse in Leeds for all round brilliance in the car sales, service, repair and parts section. They supplied my car and have done plenty of work on it since and a nicer bunch of blokes you'd be hard pressed to meet.

As for 9M, there's an awful lot more than alignment. Never had the car serviced there, although I'm sure they'd be excellent, but when it comes to tuning work and the engineering disciplines, boy does Colin Belton know his stuff. Wouldn't mind betting he's got the most highly tuned lawnmower in the country, either....[

]

Regards

oliverjamesthomas · Dec 2, 2005

To be honest Maurice, you get away with the occasional scrape and that is something I'd be very happy with indeed. Having lived with it, I certainly wouldn't advocate this type of ride height for road use. The car's going to have some remedial work done to the front end, because it's quite bad with stone chips, so I'm probably going to lift it towards an RS ride height beforehand, because the front valence is quite badly scratched underneath.

The problem is that whilst it handles brilliantly and if I was a souped-up Saxo type I'd consider it to look 'well sorted, mate'[

], it just isn't that practical for road use. At the end of the day, I think a bit of common has to prevail and after all, we all have to compromise with things, don't we?

Regards

Guest · Dec 3, 2005

ORIGINAL: MoC2S

ORIGINAL: std70040

Decent alignment etc set-up afterwards seems to be crucial, so I'll think hard about who's to do it. Favourites for this currently JZ or ?Autofarm. Reckon I could trust OPC Reading?

Click to expand...

Not sure if Autofarm have all the gear ... Reading should have kine tool, but probably not scales for corner weighting, and will charge rather a lot ... AMD have everything, but lost their Porsche tech recently, so need checking ...

cheers, Maurice []

Autofarm were plugging alignment checks in an ad in a mag I was looking at recently. £150 for the check, plus labour at usual rates for making adjustments.