tell me about the Dark Side

[944Turbo]

Modern 'rarri alfa maser etc. have adopted the torque tube though, not sure if porsche were the first.

Is it just me tht thinks the 993 doesn't quite gel, I think its because the retained the roof line and screen of the earlier cars, I prefer the 964 Turbo or 996Gt2 but then I dont much like the sound of a flat six either.
Tony

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

I'm not so sure the 911 has the engine in the wrong place. The way the 997 handles and sticks to the road and provides unparalelled launch control beating traction you could argue that everyone else has their engines in the wrong place!

Hate to shatter your illusions, but......[]

At the last worker's conference the Man from Porsche did say, and I'm probably misquoting terribly but the principle is there, that the engineers at Porsche have developed the rear-engine layout as far as practical. They are now being caught and overtaken by other cars such as the R8 with their intrinsically better layout. You only have to look at the footprint of the rubber and the electronic trickery to see why a modern 911 stays on the road and puts it's power down. Take the electronics off and you would soon be in a hedge backwards without the driving skills of the Stig or Vicky Butler Henderson. Well, the Stig anyway....[][]

Interesting to see the layout of several cars now mirroring the 944 for better weight distribution - Maserati, Aston, Alfa etc. Was the 944 the first car with a front-engine/ rear-'box layout?

On the contrary Paul its the other way round. The 997 has far fewer electronic aids than it's competition. Compare it with the Ferarri F430 for example that has an e-diff a fancy computer controlled gearbox that reads your mind, an active suspension system, not to mention the various different settings the traction and launch control systems have. Compare that to a 997 GT3 that just has a bog standard clutch, gearbox, conventional mechanical LSD and PASM (which is at the end of the day is pretty basic as far a 'active' damping systems go - it's not even as advanced as the electro magneto stuff the new TT has) and at the end of the day the F430 is just as fast as a GT3 around a track and quicker on real roads. Just imagine how much more you'd get out of the GT3 if you transferred all that technology into it. I'd say the 911 still has more life in it yet. Yes, the others are catching up and maybe have caught up in some cases, but you could argue that it was inevitable, Porsche cannot stay on top of the pile for ever. The pre-993 911's had a reputation for throwing you backwards into a ditch but with the 993 came the rear double wishbone suspension that transformed the handling of the car and made it alot grippier and much more begnign. Yes you can still go backwards into a tree - but you can in any car if you over cook it. And there is alot to be said for going backwards into a tree rather than forwards. You are much more likely to survive for a start, and you don't get to see impending doom coming up on you.

I agree about the front engined rear transaxel layout though. Maybe not ideal for a race car but is perfect for a roadcar where you want progressive and predictive handling rather than the twitchy handling mid engined cars give you. Just imagine where the 924/944/968 would be now if it wasn't discontinued. The only drawback to this layout is it is not feasible to have 4wd, which you really need when you start to get to the sort of HP and torque levels cars are getting to now. It's no good having 500 bhp if you can only use 350bhp of it because the traction control is reigning the rest in.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

From memory the 928 also has this arrangement and I assume the 924 as well ? I also believe that the lovely Alfa GTV's such as these http://www.motorbase.com/vehicle/by-id/-155742689/ had it too. They were first manufactured in '76 so certainly trump the 944 on that score - though sadly not on durability

Lol - so at least one person spotted my deliberate mistake......[]

I could use moderator's priviledge to edit to "was the 924 the first car with the transaxle layout" but I'll leave myself looking like a fool!

Interesting about the Alfa. GTV6 was on my list along with the 944 but the running costs my Dad had with his new one were, at best, horrendous. Great car, but you could actually HEAR the rust eating it's way through the bodywork.

 

[Suffolk944]

Aah yes the GTV6 was long on my list of cars to one day own and I guess it still is, that engine is particularly glorious even by Alfas standards. If I could only find one that hadn't dissolved.....

 

[pauljmcnulty]

On the contrary Paul its the other way round.

Well....I'm only paraphrasing the head of Porsche GB. He seemed to be saying that the rear-engined cars had reached the end of the development cycle and that the engineers were going to be looking elsewhere for the future flagship model. On the basis that the Cayenne is the best-selling model wordwide I'd not hold my breath.......[]

 

[sawood12]

Yes, i'd have believed it more if it was the head of Porsche Deutchland saying it. It seems to me the head of Porsche GB is more of a businessman than an engineer. I can't imagine he has much input into the design office back in Weissach (or wherever it may be). He's doing a damn fine job of selling the things - he's better sticking to what he knows!!

I think you can blame the US and Middle East market for the success of the Cayenne. They are just about the only countries in the world where the petrol prices are low enough so that people other than Billionaires can afford to run them.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

Yes, i'd have believed it more if it was the head of Porsche Deutchland saying it. It seems to me the head of Porsche GB is more of a businessman than an engineer. I can't imagine he has much input into the design office back in Weissach (or wherever it may be). He's doing a damn fine job of selling the things - he's better sticking to what he knows!!

I think you can blame the US and Middle East market for the success of the Cayenne. They are just about the only countries in the world where the petrol prices are low enough so that people other than Billionaires can afford to run them.

I think you're missing the point, Scott.

For a start don't criticise the man from Porsche. If you don't believe it, ask why the Cayman isn't available with an LSD - and wonder about the 'Ring lap-times that caused the problem. I'd go out on a limb and suggest that the rear-engined models are destined to be the 4th-selling model range behind the 4wd Cayenne, front-engine/rear 'box Panamera and mid-engine Boxster/ Cayman within the foreseeable future.

More importantly, don't knock the Cayenne just because it doesn't have any relevance in the UK. Sorry, Cayenne owners....[&:]. Any car manufacturer needs volume sales to fund flagship or niche models. The 924, and subsequent derivations through to 968, were the only reason the marque survived the recession of the 80s. Yet we still have to bear the "isn't it a VW" prejudice 25 years later. You should never use the word "blame" for the fact that there are people in the world who can afford to run a bullet-proof Cayenne if that is what it takes to ensure the survival of the GT2s etc, but welcome the fact that Porsche have the marketing savvy to exploit the global economy in order to continue to build mad cars with very limited appeal.

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

Porsche According To Oli.


924's/944's/968's. Not really Porsches - more particularly good Volkswagens (ignore the badge on the bonnet). Disappointing engines, but superb to drive due to brilliant layout.

Seriously, I have always thought that if the 944 series cars had the Audi rings on the front the s2's and turbo's would be worth between 2 and 3 times what they are now. Being made by the same company as the 911 just devalues it the same as the 928. Always makes me laugh that ppl criticise the cars for being built in an Audi factory when currently Audi has an image that is sky high.

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

Just imagine where the 924/944/968 would be now if it wasn't discontinued.  The only drawback to this layout is it is not feasible to have 4wd, which you really need when you start to get to the sort of HP and torque levels cars are getting to now.  It's no good having 500 bhp if you can only use 350bhp of it because the traction control is reigning the rest in.

Maserati Ghibli cup is a good pointer of where the 44/68 cars would/could have gone with a couple of more years development. Basically lots of the stuff many of us have been doing to the cars ourselves.

Personally I feel the 968 reached the end of the line because the car would have required a new chassis/shell to make it viable in the modern world (crash regs, comfort, cabin space etc. etc.). This would never have been commercially viable back then so Porsche did the correct thing and killed the front engined cars, instead concentrating on a unique product that for me must have been imagined as a sort of super-mx5 in terms of its commercial viability.

 

[sawood12]

Paul, i'm not knocking anyone. But if it is true that Porsche think they have hit the end of the road with 911 development why on earth would they go and cripple the car that would be its successor by not giving it an LSD? It just doesn't make sense. The lack of an LSD is not holding the Cayman back. That is just a myth that people have clung onto since that episode of TG - remember, the 997 hasn't got an LSD either. Last nights 5th Gear showed exactly what a good car the Cayman is when it went up against a BMW with 60bhp more and an LSD and it was only just pipped at the post by it.

The reason why the Cayman hasn't got an LSD is more likely to be becasue LSD's can induce oversteer and for the average Joe Bloggs on the street who isn't interested in driving and bought a Cayman because of the brand, oversteer in a mid engined car is a dangerous combination. When mid engined cars let go they let go very very quickly. It is more likely that it will be the Health and Safety bods that are the reason for the Cayman not having an LSD. Having people spin off in the wet in their new LSD equipped Caymans isn't exactly a good advert for the brand. I'm sure a Cayman GT3 is on the cards - Porsche is a shrewd business now, so if there is a market they will build it and it will have an LSD - or an E-diff, and a DSG gearbox, and a whole host of electronic aids.

I am ecstatic that Porsche is branching out to other markets as this is a move that will/has secured its future. If Porsche was to go under it would mean it would become more difficult to get parts for our 944's.

 

[George Elliott]

We heard all this stuff before about 30 years ago - the 911 is past it............

The 911 is Porsche, they will always have a rear engined sports car, just like Caterpillar will always make Diggers.

I like the 2 litre, twin turbo, aluminium 911, Colin Goodwin commented on as a future possible development direction.

The new Nissan GTR has a transaxle - it includes 4 wheel drive too which is a first out of a transaxle. While I admire their work, and know the Japaneese engineering standard will be very high, it weighs too much.

George
944t
964

 

[Gary C]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey
Seriously, I have always thought that if the 944 series cars had the Audi rings on the front the s2's and turbo's would be worth between 2 and 3 times what they are now.

What have you been smoking [&:]

 

[Nouveau]

Great thread...

 

[sawood12]

Interestingly enough on the 911 turbo forum there is a video showing the new Nissan GT-R trouncing the 997 turbo on track - so if the test was conducted in a fair manner to reflect both cars true potential then it just gives us a glimpse of what the 944 would have been if it had stayed in production to current day. Hopefully it would have looked a bit more attractive than the Nissan though.

 

[333pg333]

That test was so biased it's funny to watch. They were so nationallistic it was almost racist. Haha
Also while the 924 motor wasn't Porsche the 928 certainly was and the 944 was essentially half of that so those who say it's not a real Porsche are wrong in my eyes.

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: Gary C

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey
Seriously, I have always thought that if the 944 series cars had the Audi rings on the front the s2's and turbo's would be worth between 2 and 3 times what they are now.

What have you been smoking [&:]

Well, old ur Quattros seem to fetch very strong money these days, considering they suffer from engine in the wrong place issues and are not that quick he may have a point

 

[Gary C]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

ORIGINAL: Gary C

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey
Seriously, I have always thought that if the 944 series cars had the Audi rings on the front the s2's and turbo's would be worth between 2 and 3 times what they are now.

What have you been smoking [&:]

Well, old ur Quattros seem to fetch very strong money these days, considering they suffer from engine in the wrong place issues and are not that quick he may have a point

:0

More like ur Quattros make good money despite the four rings []

Seriously, whilst Audi are a respected brand, many of their 4wd large cars have been slated as 'dead' or 'vauge' in the handling department (my sisters A8 was a bit crap, her continental GT is much nicer . I would rather have a 944 than most of Audi's offerings of the era.