The Garage Queen is Now.....
- Thread starter Stewart H
- Start date
Interesting question of value here. Hypothetically, if a car has lovely body and all the right mechanicals, engine etc, but that engine happens to be one fitted in 2000 rather than 1992 (as it went pop) what does it mean to value? We'll assume the engine is pukka from Porsche with every one of the right bits and is indistinguishable from the original other than it's not the number in the log book.
Before anyone says it's "what someone will pay for it", what are thoughts? Sooner or later, every car will go through all of its mechanicals if it's used rather than part of a collection.
James
jason
New member
For some reason matching numbers in all exotic sports cars attracts a significant premium.
Why? I have no idea and don't see the point to be honest. Its a bit like it being original panel and paint....woo hoo so what...does that make it drive faster and handle better? Guess its just supply and demand for collectors that drives up premiums. If I had a race car I'd rather it had interesting race history than be original (as they will never be) but for road cars its different.
I can assure you my car is 50x better now than it was this time last year...its like brand new in comparrison....bet its a couple of £K less what a collector would pay for it though.....and would I be bothered if it had a 3.8RSR engine in instead of the original...YOU BET I WOULDN'T!!!
Why? I have no idea and don't see the point to be honest. Its a bit like it being original panel and paint....woo hoo so what...does that make it drive faster and handle better? Guess its just supply and demand for collectors that drives up premiums. If I had a race car I'd rather it had interesting race history than be original (as they will never be) but for road cars its different.
I can assure you my car is 50x better now than it was this time last year...its like brand new in comparrison....bet its a couple of £K less what a collector would pay for it though.....and would I be bothered if it had a 3.8RSR engine in instead of the original...YOU BET I WOULDN'T!!!
chfs911
New member
There are Cup engine nos. RS Engine nos and C2 engine nos.
It is up to the buyer whether he would accept the wrong type of engine no. in a car.
If it was non matching but still a Cup no. engine it would be like most of the other Cup cars out there.
If it has a bog standard C2 engine then it will impact price. I believe this one has a RS no. engine.
It is still possible to find matching no. Cup cars if you look hard enough.
Charles
It is up to the buyer whether he would accept the wrong type of engine no. in a car.
If it was non matching but still a Cup no. engine it would be like most of the other Cup cars out there.
If it has a bog standard C2 engine then it will impact price. I believe this one has a RS no. engine.
It is still possible to find matching no. Cup cars if you look hard enough.
Charles
PhilRS
New member
It all has to do with originality and perceived distance from originality. And if "it" is rare, originality comes at a premium because replacement parts for "it" tend to be quite expensive.
Charles is spot on here. If I were to buy a cup with the idea that it might be an investment, I would want it as close as possible to original specs.
Charles is spot on here. If I were to buy a cup with the idea that it might be an investment, I would want it as close as possible to original specs.
Stewart H
New member
It must have had a BIG engine failure because, let's face it, the stamping is on one half of the crankcase. This would imply that the failure led to the destruction of that casting. I doubt if there is a Cup car out there with all of the original engine parts in it and so as long as the engine is documented as having been built with all of the correct parts and the block "blueprinted", I don't see it as being a major problem.
Sure, there will be matching number cars there which will command top prices, but if it is going for a competitive price, then what is wrong with that?
Sure, there will be matching number cars there which will command top prices, but if it is going for a competitive price, then what is wrong with that?
chfs911
New member
It is your money so you make up your own mind what your happy with. We all have to make compromises when buying 2nd hand. I can assure you there are Cups out there with matching nos. H&S just sold a pristine white one with bonnet sticker intact just last week!
Other cars have dents in the rear seat area where crankshaft has failed and left their dent marks on the chassis. A standard C2 replacement engine being fitted in it place. Prices asked by H&S and other seller were very similar! The standard of the cars was not. H&S car sold in 24 hours.
You need to be careful. Shell nos should match on bonnet, doors and engine lid with the one on the rear shelf. How many Cups will you find with this criterea? None if they have an extensive race history.
Other cars have dents in the rear seat area where crankshaft has failed and left their dent marks on the chassis. A standard C2 replacement engine being fitted in it place. Prices asked by H&S and other seller were very similar! The standard of the cars was not. H&S car sold in 24 hours.
You need to be careful. Shell nos should match on bonnet, doors and engine lid with the one on the rear shelf. How many Cups will you find with this criterea? None if they have an extensive race history.
My question had a degree of self interest. I have a LHD 993 RS CS that I bought in late 2006 from H&S as a replacement for my 964 RS.... I know, I know. It has a replacement engine in cup spec (largely an absence of varioram and a rather basic air filter), all sourced from Porsche and invoiced. You'll love this, it was replaced because the engine was out for a rebuild on the bench and the garage it was in burnt down. I knew all this when I bought it and the car was also sold as "well used", all reflected in price to some (modest) extent. Anyway, I wanted a CS so I bought it and have been spending money on it since through smartening it up and refreshing some mechanicals. It will never be original numbers but it will be in v good condition, including paint job.
No intention of selling, but the thread made me think. My car looks just like the two recent CSs that have sold for big cash, being in black with gold BBS wheels. I know it's not a RHD and not original engine but the one that sold for over 100k makes me swallow a bit harder when I think of pedalling it around a race track.
No intention of selling, but the thread made me think. My car looks just like the two recent CSs that have sold for big cash, being in black with gold BBS wheels. I know it's not a RHD and not original engine but the one that sold for over 100k makes me swallow a bit harder when I think of pedalling it around a race track.
johnny senna
New member
Interesting stuff. I have a black 993 RS that Porsche converted to CS spec later in its life. Like yours, it won't be worth top money, but I bet it is worth 15 grand more than what I pad for it 3 years ago. However, that 15 grand just about covers the full engine rebuild I have just had!! So it's quits at the moment.
I will still track it no matter what its value is.
PS.....one day I will get gold BBS!!
PhilRS
New member
There was a time in the 80s (and even early 90s) when track days were populated with 2.7 RS. A combination of performance increase from other models and 'investment-minded' owners pushed them out of the track into 'classic events' (e.g. Tour de France Auto and so forth).
I believe that we are now at an interesting juncture: Some owners will start protecting what has become an investment and look elsewhere for better performance (e.g. GT3s, CUP included) on the track. As much as I love the 964 RS (and I do), in terms of raw performance (I did not write 'driving experience'), on the track, the ratio 2.7RS/3.6RS is about the same as 3.6RS_CUP/GT3RS_CUP...
I believe that we are now at an interesting juncture: Some owners will start protecting what has become an investment and look elsewhere for better performance (e.g. GT3s, CUP included) on the track. As much as I love the 964 RS (and I do), in terms of raw performance (I did not write 'driving experience'), on the track, the ratio 2.7RS/3.6RS is about the same as 3.6RS_CUP/GT3RS_CUP...
By happy coincidence, my other car is a GT3 Cup from 1999 which I'm campaigning in the Porsche Open having bought it late last year. It was the reason that, after enough incidents, I wanted a race car that owed me nothing (if you see what I mean). I'll be happy with the 993 CS on track days, but perhaps going for 7/10 on the scale rather than near the ragged edge which the racing warrants.
lee fulford
New member
There is no doubt that originality on an older classic even if in a failrly used state is becoming more sought after and hence valuable than a fully restored sausage.
An old classic with patina in tact is becoming a rare find. That's because it's something that cannot be replicated or bought.
An old classic with patina in tact is becoming a rare find. That's because it's something that cannot be replicated or bought.
johnny senna
New member
That's right. That trend for "patina/originality" commanding the highest prices has definitely increased over the years. Compare that situation to what was going on in the last classic car price boom in the ealry 90s where it was bare metal re-sprays, new leather for the seats and shiny chrome all round. But sod patina, I intend to keep doing bits of work on my own car as they arise. I am not afraid to paint it either (for stone chips/scratches etc).
One of the daftest things I read recently along these lines was regarding the "Beiruit 73 RS". The new oweners were going to leave a massive dent/scrape in the door because it added to its heritage/provenance/patina. What a load of old b*****loks. Get it mended.
Posts made and opinions expressed are those of the individual forum members
Use of the Forum is subject to the Terms and Conditions
