The single most interesting performance list I've seen

[barks944]

John posted this in the pistonheads thread, its the same as the info he sent me.

Standard exhaust (non cat) 350-360 BHP
Standard k26/6 turbocharger (220 cars) 300 BHP (beyond this it becomes a heat pump)
Standard k26/8 turbocharger (250 cars) 320 BHP (beyond this it becomes a heat pump)
standard Cylinder head (2.5) 420 BHP
standard throttle body 420 BHP
Standard fuel pump - 320 BHP
Standard injectors - 320 BHP
Standard breather system - 340 BHP
Intake manifold - 420 BHP

 

[ChasR]

ORIGINAL: AndrewS

Hi All,

Here's another thought: I spent 4 years developing my '89 into a 422bhp car (a largely irrelevant figure - but that's what the dyno recorded). On slick's it would pull a 1:15 round Castle Combe. My current car (essentially standard) will do it in 1:16 with little more than standard power. Take the slick tyres off and the time drops by 6 to 7 seconds (using standard road tyres). A set of slick tyres is £500. Another 170bhp - about £6,000 - £12,000 (if done professionally, for some it has cost more). Engine numbers may be an attraction, but sheer driving performance is what it's all about and the 944 Turbo is a great place to start.

To get the most from a 944 Turbo and preserve it's value I recommend keeping engine modifications marginal and making the investment in good suspension, tyres and brakes as this exploits the key benefits any 944 Turbo has as standard; namely 50/50 weight distribution, low weight and low ride height. Almost 20 years on and little else comes close from a pure driving perspective (again, in my considered opinion).

Regards,
Andrew
[]

It's funny you talk about having a nearly stock 951 on the track. One specialist I know said that for track work or spirited driving fun they didn't see the point in changing the turbo on a 951, reckoning that by going for a bigger turbo one was simply trying to show off about their 'endowment'. Mind you, his GB racer is an S2.

What alternative suspension can you suggest bar the KWv3 for a road car that may do occasional track work?

 

[333pg333]

Essentially I would agree with the 'KISS' principle for most of us. Unless you have very deep pockets. Then you can push the envelope quite considerably. I have seen first hand possibly the most extreme extension of a 951 race car. It had a custom Carbon fibre 968 bodykit and resembled very little from what we drive. It was quite something to see in the 'metal' so to speak. They registered over 500whp at 16psi but as has been mentioned, dyno figures are subjective. With all due respect, they do push their cars to higher levels in the US but that's based on there being a much bigger population / market and the costs of cars and parts.

 

[333pg333]

Here's another one that was with the same 'Shop'. More recognisable and financially attainable. However still very fast.

Oh, and for you that haven't seen this clip. Here's a modified 951 giving a Cup Car a real run for it's money in Holland. From memory this car had only something like 350bhp too.
http://www.youtube.com/user/rbuiten#p/a/u/1/vExPd7IlCbc

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: ChasR

ORIGINAL: AndrewS

Hi All,

Here's another thought: I spent 4 years developing my '89 into a 422bhp car (a largely irrelevant figure - but that's what the dyno recorded). On slick's it would pull a 1:15 round Castle Combe. My current car (essentially standard) will do it in 1:16 with little more than standard power. Take the slick tyres off and the time drops by 6 to 7 seconds (using standard road tyres). A set of slick tyres is £500. Another 170bhp - about £6,000 - £12,000 (if done professionally, for some it has cost more). Engine numbers may be an attraction, but sheer driving performance is what it's all about and the 944 Turbo is a great place to start.

To get the most from a 944 Turbo and preserve it's value I recommend keeping engine modifications marginal and making the investment in good suspension, tyres and brakes as this exploits the key benefits any 944 Turbo has as standard; namely 50/50 weight distribution, low weight and low ride height. Almost 20 years on and little else comes close from a pure driving perspective (again, in my considered opinion).

Regards,
Andrew
[]

It's funny you talk about having a nearly stock 951 on the track.  One specialist I know said that for track work or spirited driving fun they didn't see the point in changing the turbo on a 951, reckoning that by going for a bigger turbo one was simply trying to show off about their 'endowment'.  Mind you, his GB racer is an S2.

What alternative suspension can you suggest bar the KWv3 for a road car that may do occasional track work?

Having driven or ridden in a few modified 951s on road and track, I would argue your man's p.o.v. Going for a larger, modern turbo can give voluble advances so long as it's married with some other enhancements. Software, MAF, bigger exhaust and dual port wastegate amongst others.

 

[TTM]

These are interesting figures but for each run it would have been useful to run alongside a given fully standard car.

For what it's worth I know of a K26/6 car that put down 240bhp or about in fully standard spec then 294bhp with just fiddling with the fuel map and the boost pressure - one may gain 50bhp with a K26/6, but 70bhp is just impossible.

ORIGINAL: barks944
John posted this in the pistonheads thread, its the same as the info he sent me.

No figure for the intercooler?
edit : comment on PH mentions "poor flow over 320bhp".

 

[barks944]

The 240bhp standard may just represent a particularily well factory tuned car or perhaps it was running a slightly higher boost pressure etc. Thats not to say a car that only makes 225 from the factory can't also make 290 when tuned to the same level.

 

[DivineE]

I'm sure Paul Smiths car ran 290+ on a K26/6 on the very first Weltmeister dyno day??

 

[Hilux]

Torque, not power is key. Power is a function of torque.

Andrew is absolutely correct in that it is a number of characteristics that come into play.

The first is driver tuition - thats by far and away the cheapest way to more power (lower lap times)

The second is better brakes.

The third is good suspension. Mo30 is ok but unless its rebuild it is tired 20 year old technology and even then isnt the holy grail.

Only then go for a better engine output but ensure it has a smooth torque curve so you have useable power throughout the rev range.

A bigger turbo can be a hassle unless managed properly or it stalls, spools up late or the power is too peaky.

 

[AndrewS]

ORIGINAL: ChasR

It's funny you talk about having a nearly stock 951 on the track.  One specialist I know said that for track work or spirited driving fun they didn't see the point in changing the turbo on a 951, reckoning that by going for a bigger turbo one was simply trying to show off about their 'endowment'.  Mind you, his GB racer is an S2.

What alternative suspension can you suggest bar the KWv3 for a road car that may do occasional track work?

Hi,

For occasional track work, I recommend brake cooling ducts and some good quality brake pads. Also get some road homologated track tyres (such a Pirelli Corsa, Michelin Pilot Cup Sport or other equivalent track orientated tyre). Lose any weight you can and if you have M030, set the rebound to maximum.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[sawood12]

The Weltmiester was recording a range of about 190ish to 210 bhp for S2's which I think is a good measure of how accurate that dyno was bearing in mind Porsche published figures are usually pretty good so most S2's would have been producing more than the advertised 211bhp. These Porshe engines with the Alusil bores also hold their power levels well as the bores don't really wear so maintain good sealing round the piston rings - my old car was producing 'just run in' levels of compression at 100k miles after a compression test. Usually dodgy compression tests on 944's means a leaky cylinder head rather than leaky pistons. I think the Weltmiester dyno, though not 100% accurate was pretty good and any dyno that read much higher or lower were just less accurate.

I reckon if you had a good leak free boost system and could push your K26/6 to hold 15psi into the higher range of the revs then 300bhp (there or thereabouts) is possible. The Vitesse stage 3 kit which consists of the VR MAF and stage 3 turbo is advertised at being able to produce 320bhp at 15psi - and I think that is RWHP. So if your engine and turbo is in fine fettle then a K26/6 holding 15psi to 5krpm and you have well mapped chips you should be kicking out good HP - bearing in mind a K26/6 will get on boost quicker than a k26/8 and therefore you get that extra area under the curve in the low RPMs.

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: sawood12



The Vitesse stage 3 kit which consists of the VR MAF and stage 3 turbo is advertised at being able to produce 320bhp at 15psi - and I think that is RWHP. 

Only proviso being that US BHP figures do seem to be a tad more optimistic than over this side of the Pond (not dissing Vitesse products at all, am seriously looking into getting their MAF at present).

 

[MarkK]

If you are running standard 16 inch wheels and want to lap a little quicker the Toyo R888 is a great track tyre,it is less costly than the Michelin,maybe not quite as good out and out stick in the dry,but they are cheaper than MPCs and have better wet weather manners as they clear standing water better.Tuned cars with big Turbos etc are fantastic addictive fun for road and occasional track use,but i would agree that for a real track car dedicated track suspension,lower weight measures,good well ventilated brakes with less emphasis on horsepower(allthough a few more are always nice) are the way to go....[][]

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

I'm sure Paul Smiths car ran 290+ on a K26/6 on the very first Weltmeister dyno day??

Close but no cigar. It was 282 at 1 bar with chips, wastegate and MBC and I was really disappointed because I thought I had a K26/8 at the time

Looking at Ricks table it's still the highest K26/6 that was ever on the 'Rollers of Truth'

 

[333pg333]

Some interesting observations and remarks in that Pistonheads link. I like what Baz has come up with on a budget (relative). It's also nice to see some more tech posts regarding performance upgrades. []

Mark, I agree about the Toyo R888s however funnily enough many wouldn't. So much so that Toyo (in the US at least) are re-releasing some RA1s in certain sizes because of popular demand. Seems as if many racers held the RA1s to be a superior tyre than that which superceded it. Re the MPSC, I've not used them but from what I understand they take a long time to get up to heat but once there, they maintain a very good level of grip for a long time. I found the R888s to come up to heat very quickly and last for quite a decent time too. I switched to some Bridgestone RE55s and found them to be prone to breaking traction certainly on the street and partially blame them for me writing my car off. [] so I would probably steer clear of them if I were shopping around again....

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

........ partially blame them for me writing my car off. []

What's this? []

Not your grey beasty I hope