Thinking of a 944

[pault]

Hi,

I've been thinking of a 944 for a long time, and I think it's about time I did something about it. I've had a couple of XJS's before so I know what to expect from an 80s car, but I'd really like to understand a few things before I take the plunge.

1. What is the best version? I want speed, but I also don't want to spend forever fixing the thing. Should I go for the Turbo S or the S2?
2. What sort of mileage can the engines do before they need a rebuild?
3. How much should I pay for a very good 944? I know from bitter experience that it's often a case of the more the better.
4. Are there any good buyers guides out there? Or do you have any tips?

I'm looking to buy in the next three weeks. If I could get something for under 5k I'd be very happy.

 

[tref]

Welcome... and a good plan to come here first!

OK... I think you will find an '80s Porsche poles apart from an XJS...

1. There is no best, they all have strengths and strengths (few weaknesses ;-))... The S2 probably represents the best performance to maintenance ratio.
2. I have a Turbo with 200ish K miles, not out, and an S2 with an engine with 270+k miles, not out. The chassis has done 320k miles, many parts still original.
3. I'll leave that for someone else to answer... plenty of information on here (as there are of the model comparisons).
4. Find someone on here to have a look, or better still, find someone on here who is known and thinking of selling!

I would budget on longer than three weeks looking. You might strike gold on day one, but when I was desperately looking (I mean all the usual sources looked at daily every two hours) I took over a month to find what I was looking for about seven years ago - there are far fewer than that about now. If and when you do find the right car, buy it quick. I bought mine within 15 minutes of it being advertised. (but I was lucky there).

 

[ChasR]

Firstly, Welcome to the forum!

As for the below questions they will open a can of worms in all honesty! So I will give it a go in answering them trying to cater for both side of the argument. Which XJS did you have? Now they are a lovely motor to drive around .

ORIGINAL: pault

Hi,

I've been thinking of a 944 for a long time, and I think it's about time I did something about it. I've had a couple of XJS's before so I know what to expect from an 80s car, but I'd really like to understand a few things before I take the plunge.

1. What is the best version? I want speed, but I also don't want to spend forever fixing the thing. Should I go for the Turbo S or the S2?
2. What sort of mileage can the engines do before they need a rebuild?
3. How much should I pay for a very good 944? I know from bitter experience that it's often a case of the more the better.
4. Are there any good buyers guides out there? Or do you have any tips?

I'm looking to buy in the next three weeks. If I could get something for under 5k I'd be very happy.

1. IMHO there is no 'best' version for most people. I personally prefer the manic nature of the Turbo, the calm before the storm if you may. However, with any version condition counts over the car unless you wish to part with a small fortune.
2. How long is a piece of string? My first 2 went through 3 engines in the space of 130k due to one simple thing being wrong IMHO. My Turbo went to 180k on either a lightly refreshed bottom end (i.e rings) or a stock one. Many other owners have as well. Suspension can get worse but OTOH these cars are now over 22 years old for even the youngest example.
3. Again, this is an open ended question. If you are not picky on mileages and are going for condition I would say £6.5k is a good starting point for both, maybe less for an S2 but not alot. Remember that condition counts! I saw many ropey examples when I bought my S2 (which was the best example for my budget by far. it did cost me a small fortune to maintain though! My Turbo did cost me more and it cost me less overall in the grand scheme of things.
4. There are a number of buyer's guides out there. I will knock up a checklist but there are a few guides even within this forum.

You *may* get an S2 for that kind of money or a very very good 2.5 or S. Some may disagree but OTOH after intially overspending it seems to be good to be getting to grips what will not cost one a fortune in the long term.

 

[pault]

Thanks. I could go up to 6.5k or 7 perhaps as my absolute limit. I'm not bothered about mileage so much, I always buy on condition and the amount of recent receipts.

I think I'd be happy with either an S2 or a Turbo S - it's more important that I don't buy a lemon which will cost me thousands to put right.

I know it's hard to tell but are these cars (if in good condition) appreciating at all? I'm not buying for that but it'd be good to know.

Also, are there any areas to watch out for re rust? Are the panels galvanised?

 

[white944]

They're thoroughly galvanised and don't rust at all.[]

 

[PAUL RUDDY]

You keep saying Turbo S, the Turbo S was a limited edition 1988 only car, you'd be lucky to get a decent one under £12k

If you mean a 1989 onwards 250hp Turbo then it is simply a 944 Turbo.

Good luck in your search, unfortunately you are probably looking in the price bracket that contains the most lemons but also there'll be the odd peach, good examples of S2 and Turbo requiring little or no initial outlay after purchase are sneaking ever upwards in price.

Cheers.

Things to check

Rust in sills, look for little diamond shape dimple on original sills marking jacking point.
Rust in lower rear quarters
Rust in rear arches
Rust in lower rear of front wing
Rust around numberplate lamps
Recent waterpump
Recent timing belts, at least every four years
When was clutch changed
If S2 or Turbo check for damaged fog/drive lamps, very expensive
If 16v has the cam chain and slipper been replaced recently
Check factory identification label affixed to rear panel, lists option codes which you can cross ref on line.
Cracks in dash
Non working sunroof
Lazy hatch struts
Lazy bonnet struts
Dash clock working on all functions


These are the basics

 

[andy watson]

Hi and welcome to the forum,

Loved my XJS V12 5.3, soooo long ago now though, a 944 is chalk & cheese to the Jaaaag.

You may need to re-think with your available budget, a good Turbo for your top end will be difficult a Turbo S impossible these cars are now starting to increase in value, search the 944 section for recent threads on this.
If you are looking for a 944 Turbo, you will need a starting budget of at least £10k - £12K to stand any chance of a half decent one, you would probably still need to spend to bring it up to top condition, of course there are some out there for less but be very careful, get a pre purchase inspection or at least have someone look with you who knows these cars.

Don't be put off my the other models, the 250bhp Turbo is in a different class that's true, however the other models in good condition (mechanical) will keep up with a 220bhp Turbo when driven hard (as they should be)

Buy on condition & service history over the model, any 944 will reward you, its a drivers car and through the twisty bits the added weight of the turbo is no real help after all [] an early decent well maintained model will be far better than a late Turbo unloved car

Plenty of advice and help on here, don't be afraid to ask questions, and don't be in a rush to buy within 3 weeks, it is also wise and always suggested to keep £1k in reserve, in the first year you probably will need it.

Good luck with the search, keep us updated

 

[Monkeythree]

There is a 1991 J plate S2 on Autotrader for £4.5k which looks to be worth a look. 155k miles but at face value looks none the worse for it. If it's not hiding lots of rust then it could be a nice car. Tempted to buy it myself actually.

10 minutes later and it's gone. Presume sold!

 

[sutters]

Be prepared to spend anything from £1,500 to £3,000 o repair if you've rust in the sills and other areas. Worth baring in mind if you've a budget in mind.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Hi Paul, and welcome. []

Where are you based? I always feel the best first step when buying an older car is to meet up with an owner who isn't selling! That way you can get an un-biased look at a car, and what you need to be aware of. 944s scrub up very well, but can hide some large bills.

Paul Ruddy's list of major things to look for is good: I'd add in head gasket, suspension overhaul, fuel and brake lines off the top of my head, and the brake calipers on the S2 and turbo need overhauling periodically.

The big question is can you do the work yourself? Small things like a dash clock or bonnet struts are cheap and easy, but a clutch or head gasket is a different level of spannering. Any one of those major jobs could be well over a grand each at a specialist, so it puts in context how much you could save by buying one where the previous owner did a lot of work.

Personally, I don't think your budget is enough for an S2 or turbo in the current market, unless you are either very lucky or can do a lot of work yourself. We used to say keep a grand back for repairs in the first year, but over ten years I'd now easily suggest £2K: that doesn't leave enough IMO.

I'd suggest spending £3 or £4K on a really nice lux, S, or even a 924S, and having a good cushion in the bank. Run it for a year or two, get to know the cars, and keep an eye out for exceptional cars if you want to change for a turbo or S2. I don't say "upgrade", as lots of people prefer the lighter, more nimble versions.

To put it in to context, I bought my S2 for less than £5K, fully-serviced, from a specialist, 6 years ago. In that time I've spent more than £5K on top of regular servicing, the brake overhaul was £2K alone, and realistically could spend another £5K to make it top condition. That's £15K or more, on what was a nice one to start with!

They are fantastic cars, and incredibly well-built. Yes, they need money spending on them, but what 25-30 year old premium car would cost less to run? Let alone be as great to own. You just need to buy well, or you could be put off by a bad one.

 

[zcacogp]

Paul,

The simple answer to your question is that you should buy the best example of a 944 (any 944) that falls within your budget. That budget is, as has been said, a little tight for an S2 or a turbo but it would buy you an excellent Lux. (Don't underestimate the Lux's; 944's aren't about engines, they are about the chassis and handling and feel and feedback. And those are the same regardless of whether you are piloting a 2.5 Lux or a Turbo S.)

Looking at a good 944 before sallying forth to buy one is a great idea. Taking a knowledgeable owner with you to look at a potential purchase is an even better idea. If you are anywhere near East London then I'd be happy to have a chat.

ORIGINAL: ChasR

Lots of very good stuff.

You need to buy another 944, Chas. The 944 community needs you, and I think you are missing owning a 944.


Oli.

 

[edh]

I reckon that budget is plenty for a decent S2 - as long as you're prepared to spend on regular maintenance. The turbos knocking around at that price will have high miles, but you might turn up a bargain. As Paul said - be careful as there's a great variation in the quality of cars at that price.

Engines go on for ever - they are the least of your worries. Corrosion is the killer IMO.

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: edh
Engines go on for ever - they are the least of your worries. Corrosion is the killer IMO.

I think that's spot on. Corrosion, and big jobs that turn up infrequently - things like brake refurbishments, clutches, belt and waterpump change and so on. As McNulters has said, a couple of things like this can create a maintenance bill of knocking on £5k in your first year - not cheap.

You may get a good S2 within your budget, but it will be a matter of getting lucky. It's not impossible, for sure.


Oli.

 

[Mikebarry202]

Spot on comments from all so far...

My tuppence worth is based on experience as a new S2 owner since early Nov 14:

I bought mine from a non-specialist car dealer - I was content with his knowledge levels of 944s generally so that didn't put me off. I paid £7.5k and it's a really nice example inside and out, but I've still forked out £900 (to an IPS) on new belts, chain and slippers because although the car had only done 10k miles since the last change that was in 2009 so I didn't want to risk it. I didn't haggle on the price as I haggled on the part ex of my Audi A4 convertible - much of a muchness!

I looked at a number of models varying in sale price. Looking at tip top "expensive" ones helps to give a good comparison, although they were out of my league (well, specifically what I dared to ask the missus for!!). The best two in my range were the one I bought but i also seriously considered a white 220bhp turbo that was well maintained and in good bodywork condition, but it was just a bit too "tatty" for me on the interior - given the price rises I actually reckon that would have been a great buy but in reality I think it would have cost a lot more in the short term.

Enjoy the "hunt" but as already mentioned be prepared to take the quick plunge and buy it if you are happy with it - don't wait and think on it too long or it'll probably go.

In my opinion good bodywork condition is of the essence, therefore buy based on that rather than mechanicals (notwithstanding general servicing/maint history). I'm a mechanic by trade (though not in the industry directly) and dare I say I'm actually looking forward to having to get my hands dirty (ok, I bet I'll regret saying that) - for the first time as owner I wanted the belts changed "professionally" but I'll do them myself in future....

A specific tip I've read about is to ask the seller/dealer to remove the air vent on the body at the back of the door, as this is a good access point to take a look inside the upper sill area (hopefully that makes sense and is agreedv upon). I didn't know at the time, and although I've a couple of small paint bubbles in front of the rear wheels and at the bottom of the front wing to clear up (which I've started on and will be raising a new topic thread for advice on some bits and pieces to do with minor sill repairs, sealing, painting etc) I've removed the under sill trims and they are rust free on the inside.

I'm personally of the view of spending as much as you can afford on the right car BUT keeping some back for a rainy day (i.e. unscheduled repairs). £1k seems to be the figure and it fits with my experience...

Are you after a private or dealer sale, or not bothered?

Good luck in your hunt, the right car is out there..

 

[Rtwoodstock]

All good advice. I can't speak about the cost of getting the car you want as seems so variable at the moment - save certainly S2s seem to be out there with a bit of time/effort on the search.

Am on my fourth 944 (but my first S2) and am not mechanical at all. But, can say (based on my experience) that (and am aware is obvious thing to say) that the absolute key is not leaping in but buying the very best car you can get for your money with as many of the known (around 100,000 it seems again based on just my experience) things done as recently as possible (clutch etc). And, if they are not done but you love the car and all else seems well then don't mess about with getting them done and factor them in as the price you are paying for the car, You can't legislate for just bad luck but many of the horror stories I've come across are often where the basic rules of buying any car just haven't been followed coupled with someone being seduced by the low 'entry' cost to ownership but without necessarily the means/willingness/understanding that it is a continual investment for which you need to budget.

Again, based on my own rough experience and allowing for inflation etc. (as well as bearing in mind both my own lack of mechanical ability and that my car generally just does very long European road trips (amounting to 12-15,000 miles a year)). I bought my current '89 S2 last April for £4,250 privately with 104,000 miles on it. It hadn't been used much in recent years (only 800 or so miles a year for last few years). But, had been garaged and serviced once a year by JMG (very well known and by all accounts don't have many peers when it comes to 944s). The sills were fine; drove well etc. Bought it and was driving down the length of Italy the next week so went straight to Indy nearest to me for all the belts and a service and replacement of any perished items (again, only my experience but it hasn't tended to be miles that have caused me trouble with these cars but sheer time and when the car has been stood with lots of slowly perishing rubber bits) this came to about £1,200.

It is very far from a perfect example but is fundamentally (I think) sound. And this holds roughly true for all the 944s I've had. I budget based on my mileage for about £1,000 in servicing costs (at my Indy anyway) and I invest another £1,000 on preventative maintenance/future proofing. The key is not to wait until you have a problem as this seems to then spiral to affect the car generally - so, if its done the miles get the clutch replaced etc.

But, if you buy well and are prepared to keep investing consistently, and I know is a cliched thing to say but there is great 'bang for the buck' to be had. There are few cars for the money that if treated right will reward you with such an enjoyable driving experience on just about every road type; weather condition (I live half the time in Stockholm so my car spends a lot of time slipping about) coupled with fantastic practicality (you'll be amazed what you can get in it - I also have a 996 Carrera and is not even in the ballpark (as much as I love it) and if I had a long drive tomorrow it is the 944 I would pick. It has done journeys like Parma to Barcelona (touching on 700 miles) in a day without ever missing a beat it does it more comfortably that the 996 with more stuff in it and (I know is slightly dull thing to say) but my S2 has averaged 30.02 MPG since I've owned it.

Oh, and I endorse the advice, if possible, to take someone up on their offer to show you round/drive the various examples.

 

[Eldavo]

If you crave speed then a late turbo with a sprinkling of light mods will definitely fit the bill - anything with a Promax Level 2 or similar kit should be more than enough.

I had a minty 2.7 and when sat on fresh shocks it was a lovely B-road weapon and left a 600bhp Monaro far behind on the twisties. The chassis is the real peach and is so competent that it quickly shows up the lack of power in the 2.5/2.7s.

A year ago or so and you'd be able to pick up a tidy S2/Turbo for your budget but now you may need to do a bit more legwork to grab a deal.

As has been said though, let people know where you are and spend a morning with a current owner - they'll point out the pitfalls and give you an idea what to look out for.

 

[pault]

Cheers all, you can't beat an owners forum for great advice!

@ PAUL RUDDY - Yes, I do mean the later Turbo - but reading through it does sound like it might be out of my price bracket. However I think with luck I could get a good S or S2 perhaps. I'm happy to go up to about 6k for the right car.

@ andy watson - Both my XJSs were V12s, so that's perhaps why I'm a bit transfixed on power. Perhaps I could go for a S rather than an S2.

@ pauljmcnulty - I live in central London, so it might be a good idea to go and speak to an owner if someone's nearby.

@ zcacogp - I'm in central London, I'll send you a PM!

@ edh - I'm hoping so. There seems to be some absolutely immiaculate cars for 10k plus (but a very small number) then the price drops rapidly. I think 6k should be a good realistic price for an S or S2.

@ Mikebarry202 - Cheers for the air vent tip! I'm not bothered where the car comes from, it's more about the price and the car!

@ Rtwoodstock - I think your car looks exactly like what I'm after. Don't suppose you're taking offers on it? ;-)

@ Eldavo - yup, perhaps I don't need the S2 or Turbo after all.

 

[Rtwoodstock]

Sorry, that would just put in the same boat of myself trying to find a solid S2 for semi sensible money! But, what it does show is that they are out there within your budget if you look hard enough.

And as people have said - do drive them as they do have different characters. For me the S was hard work to keep 'on it' but very rewarding when you do and so on. 2.7 Lux for easier and better for GT type journeys. And the Turbos have driven were fantastic and could even today leave many modern cars behind at various points but I don't find all that real world applicable for how I use them. And, maybe just my experience but could drink fuel something fierce.

The sort of miles I do it was the S2 as I think gives the best balance of useable performance in real world use. But, for you it may well be something else. So, do try them. If you're ever in the west cotswolds you're welcome to try my S2.

Good luck with the search.

 

[edh]

...or maybe buy a cheap one, learn them from the inside, then you might find it easier to buy a "good" one. I started with a £900 924S []

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/944/porsche-944-s2-1990/3705674

There's also a white one on ebay which looks like it has been cleaned very nicely, maybe it's as good as it looks?

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Will you be working on it yourself? That has a huge bearing on the running costs, with London indie rates not likely to be under £60 per hour plus vat, and probably more.

There isn't much to choose between an S and a Lux in power terms, it's all about how it's delivered.

As said, it's all about how the car drives rather than outright power: even 300bhp from a lightly-imporoved turbo isn't going to set the world on fire compared to what you could buy. A Lux on well-sorted suspension and decent tyres will be massively more fun, and faster, than an S2 needing work.

Definitely worth it if you can spend an hour with Oli, or if you want the trip out to the countryside I'm just north of Beaconsfield. []