time for a 911?
- Thread starter Alpine
- Start date
It was me who said the 996 isn't that fast, and your figures (drough) nicely back that up. 5.2 to 60 (not that it's a measure I care much about personally) and 175mph aren't fast when you can buy cars ready for the road that will hit 60 in under 4 secs and get close to 250 mph. Not so long ago I sold an estate car with 505bhp and the capability (personally verified) to hit 180 and still be pulling quite strongly.
I too had the 911 Turbo (930) on my wall as I grew up. I just don't see the 996 looks like the same thing - which is the horses for courses thing which I totally understand and agree with. However (and if you drove a few generations of 911 you'll know this) there is a universe of difference between the driving expereince between the torsion 911 and the 996. Now I agree again that it's still horses for courses, though I do have a personal issue with the 996 being a 911 at all.
Regardless some of what I posted is my personal opinion, to which I'm entitled (as is everyone else; no dig intended at anyone in that statement) and which I share as that's the point of discussion. I also want to help people reading this who have no direct experience but might fancy a "911" by pointing out the name covers a wide spectrum of cars, some of which have more in common with competitor products than each other. Lastly I wouldn't personally recommend a 944 as a stepping stone to a 911 because aside the badge it has nothing to mark it out as a predecessor choice. Now I made that mistake myself (albeit having a 944 to replace a departed 911) so I'm not being critical of others who did it, but if someone about to make the mistake reads this then that might help them as well.
I too had the 911 Turbo (930) on my wall as I grew up. I just don't see the 996 looks like the same thing - which is the horses for courses thing which I totally understand and agree with. However (and if you drove a few generations of 911 you'll know this) there is a universe of difference between the driving expereince between the torsion 911 and the 996. Now I agree again that it's still horses for courses, though I do have a personal issue with the 996 being a 911 at all.
Regardless some of what I posted is my personal opinion, to which I'm entitled (as is everyone else; no dig intended at anyone in that statement) and which I share as that's the point of discussion. I also want to help people reading this who have no direct experience but might fancy a "911" by pointing out the name covers a wide spectrum of cars, some of which have more in common with competitor products than each other. Lastly I wouldn't personally recommend a 944 as a stepping stone to a 911 because aside the badge it has nothing to mark it out as a predecessor choice. Now I made that mistake myself (albeit having a 944 to replace a departed 911) so I'm not being critical of others who did it, but if someone about to make the mistake reads this then that might help them as well.
Neil Haughey
New member
Neil Haughey
New member
Well I agree with you Fen, probably nearer 95+% in hindsight looking back over this thread. I badly wanted a pre 74 911 at one point, but these have gone up in price to crazy levels. They are tiny in comparison to a modern 911, totally different cars like you say and Porsche's main demographic these days in reality is competition with MB, Audi, BMW so I would expect that their engineering approach is very much along the same lines.
Thinking about it, it is hard to think of a small lightweight coupe with high tactility and 200+ Bhp. In this case torsion bar 911's are pretty unique. In hindsight I should have said E30 M3 but I have no idea how these drive but ppl tell me they have wonderful steering feel and a very zingy engine, the only nice sounding 4 pot is a remark that sticks in my mind. Interestingly E30 M3's and 3.2 carrera's are at more or less the same price point thesedays.
Thinking about it, it is hard to think of a small lightweight coupe with high tactility and 200+ Bhp. In this case torsion bar 911's are pretty unique. In hindsight I should have said E30 M3 but I have no idea how these drive but ppl tell me they have wonderful steering feel and a very zingy engine, the only nice sounding 4 pot is a remark that sticks in my mind. Interestingly E30 M3's and 3.2 carrera's are at more or less the same price point thesedays.
The comparison with the M3 I have seen made in this thread has been between the 996 and the e46, rather than the 944T and the M3, hasn't it? I think that's a valid one as they are similar money and similar cars.
I might have compared a 944T to a mate's e36 M3 in this thread (I did somewhere) as I followed it for a section of the 'Ring. The M3 was only slightly slower up Ex Muhle even though it was two up and I was on my own in a 305bhp 944T. It was my second ever lap so only straight line comparison is valid.
During that trip I got chatting to a guy with a stripped out yellow e36 M3 (non Evo) who had just put in an 8:01. Turns out he's a Jaguar test driver and knows the place backwards, but it shows that the Evo magazine M3 Evo GT was not performing to its capability.
I don't personally like the e36 M3 much; having driven my mate's it's much faster than it feels - something I can also vouch for being the case with the e46 (but not CSL) - not a situation I think is desirable as you get none of the fun of feeling like you're going quickly with all the risk to your license or of any incident being a big one.
I might have compared a 944T to a mate's e36 M3 in this thread (I did somewhere) as I followed it for a section of the 'Ring. The M3 was only slightly slower up Ex Muhle even though it was two up and I was on my own in a 305bhp 944T. It was my second ever lap so only straight line comparison is valid.
During that trip I got chatting to a guy with a stripped out yellow e36 M3 (non Evo) who had just put in an 8:01. Turns out he's a Jaguar test driver and knows the place backwards, but it shows that the Evo magazine M3 Evo GT was not performing to its capability.
I don't personally like the e36 M3 much; having driven my mate's it's much faster than it feels - something I can also vouch for being the case with the e46 (but not CSL) - not a situation I think is desirable as you get none of the fun of feeling like you're going quickly with all the risk to your license or of any incident being a big one.
sawood12
New member
Thought about this thread today when a guy in my office rolled in today in his new blue (same colour as Fens previous one I think) 964 with cup 1's. Needless to say I was drooling. I think it is definately the best looking 911 of the entire range. Must bump into him at the coffee machine and hint for a ride in it!
MarkK
Active member
Walter Rohl had a 964 C4 as his own personal private car, i have read he loved the 4 wheel drive system on the 964 series.Depends what you want the car for,when you will be driving it?I have had a 993 C4S and much prefer the permanant almost old fashioned feel of the 964 system you know where you are with it and can drive accordingly.In this country with the duff weather you can get around quickly more of the time and safely in a 964 C4,if its icy you can lock the diffs pulling away on a hill,if you are choosing a older 911 as your "sunday special" driven on nice days/track days only, maybe a C2 is better for feel,but for an everyday real life useable sportscar the C4 964 is brilliant.
appletonn
New member
Went to the R18 meet last night and there was a gorgeous old ST/RSR race car in Viper green - the kind of car that makes you want to sell a kidney on Ebay...
The noise it made, the compactness of it, every detail was gorgeous.
Similar to this one, except the green one was built to race...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/573988.htm
Drove the 60 miles home in powerboating conditions on the M6, but other than a few 'exciting' standing water type moments, the car handled the foul conditions well.
The noise it made, the compactness of it, every detail was gorgeous.
Similar to this one, except the green one was built to race...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/573988.htm
Drove the 60 miles home in powerboating conditions on the M6, but other than a few 'exciting' standing water type moments, the car handled the foul conditions well.
Funny to read all the disparate ramblings in this thread, but all good fun and encapsulates what a forum is for. Vox Populi[
]
Nothing speaks more loudly than subjective opinions. Drough suggested that the 996 is all the car he wants/needs and there's 100% nothing wrong with that. Fen wouldn't touch it with a long pole. Both justified. I guess the thing is that you don't have to necessarily drive at breakneck speeds to have an enjoyable and involving time. I've driven Fiat 500 Bambinos at 25mph and felt very invigorated. I was on two wheels for about 70 meters and found out that with nobody in the passenger seat it had a real predilection for doing this. Once you were used to it you could actually steer and keep balanced. Great fun. No guesses what side the car eventually settled on one rainy day. [&:]
Anyway being a passenger with Nick in his pretty stock 993 (KWs & cage) I have to say that it felt very sharp and more responsive (steering / brakes) than the 951. It actually made me want to buy one for trackday work. However that won't happen for a while if at all. Other projects occupy my time and finances, but that's the great thing about this all. You can just buy what you want, try it, and if you get it out of your system, sell it on. Even if you drop a few bucks, at least you've scratched that particular itch.
]Nothing speaks more loudly than subjective opinions. Drough suggested that the 996 is all the car he wants/needs and there's 100% nothing wrong with that. Fen wouldn't touch it with a long pole. Both justified. I guess the thing is that you don't have to necessarily drive at breakneck speeds to have an enjoyable and involving time. I've driven Fiat 500 Bambinos at 25mph and felt very invigorated. I was on two wheels for about 70 meters and found out that with nobody in the passenger seat it had a real predilection for doing this. Once you were used to it you could actually steer and keep balanced. Great fun. No guesses what side the car eventually settled on one rainy day. [&:]
Anyway being a passenger with Nick in his pretty stock 993 (KWs & cage) I have to say that it felt very sharp and more responsive (steering / brakes) than the 951. It actually made me want to buy one for trackday work. However that won't happen for a while if at all. Other projects occupy my time and finances, but that's the great thing about this all. You can just buy what you want, try it, and if you get it out of your system, sell it on. Even if you drop a few bucks, at least you've scratched that particular itch.
Neil Haughey
New member
This has been one of the most enjoyable threads we have had.
So then 964 C2 looks very tempting, always liked the look of them compared to the 993, BUT surely the 964 is a tricky one to actually own and run since internet research seems to indicate that buying one today will result in higher running costs then all the other cars we have talked about?
So then 964 C2 looks very tempting, always liked the look of them compared to the 993, BUT surely the 964 is a tricky one to actually own and run since internet research seems to indicate that buying one today will result in higher running costs then all the other cars we have talked about?
I'm not so sure Neil. I too powerboated home last night from the R18 meeting (the Viper green car was indeed lovely!) but as a passenger in a 964 C2. I would have gone in my car but my 996 was back at OPC with alarm woes (great service from Bolton with no notice but, nevertheless, big bill for 2 new door locks which weren't aligning properly or something).
My pal has owned his 964 for 13 years now and it is probably one of the very best original cars out there, it has only done 53000 miles and is pretty much as new. However, we discussed running costs and his car has been extraordinarily reliable with the only real glitches being a hard to trace air conditioning fault. There is a "hewn from solid" feel about his car that is, frankly, missing from the 996 and I genuinely don't believe that a well maintained 964 should cost more to run than a 996 but I do believe that a 964 would probably last longer.
With Alpine's £20k budget you could probably get one of the very best 964s, a very good 993 or a very good 996 - a 14 year old car, an 11 year old car or an 8year old car - all for the same money. I suppose it's a question of "you pays your money you takes your choice" with each vehicle offering differing qualities which appeal to different people.
My pal has owned his 964 for 13 years now and it is probably one of the very best original cars out there, it has only done 53000 miles and is pretty much as new. However, we discussed running costs and his car has been extraordinarily reliable with the only real glitches being a hard to trace air conditioning fault. There is a "hewn from solid" feel about his car that is, frankly, missing from the 996 and I genuinely don't believe that a well maintained 964 should cost more to run than a 996 but I do believe that a 964 would probably last longer.
With Alpine's £20k budget you could probably get one of the very best 964s, a very good 993 or a very good 996 - a 14 year old car, an 11 year old car or an 8year old car - all for the same money. I suppose it's a question of "you pays your money you takes your choice" with each vehicle offering differing qualities which appeal to different people.
sawood12
New member
I don't think that anyone is disputing the fact that early/older air cooled 911's cannot be beaten amongst any brand for the feel and emotional side of car ownership, however they are not the quickest or best performing 911's ever so to say this 991 or that 911 is the best one needs quailifying. There is no doubt (surely) that a 966 is a quicker car and easier to drive quicker than a 993 or 964 or earlier but that's not to say it's the most entertaing to drive. However there is a balance to be struck. It's not unreasonalbe for any new 911 owner to expect the car to live upto its reputation for being the king of the hill, whilst retaining some of the old school feel. I think modern 911's strike that balance well - not as soul stirring as the early cars but still soul stirring (well to me at least) and definately better. I think a 996 or even a Boxster sounds much nicer than a E46 M3 for example. I think M3's sound tinny and raspy. I wouldn't mind betting that if you went on the M3 forum (I obvously havn't) they would be having the very same argument about old vs. new M3's.
Neil Haughey
New member
I am fairly confident Scott that an S2 wipes the floor with an E30 M3 for example, but the E30 M3 is always held up as one of the greatest classic modern drivers cars. Never even been in one but the BMW enthusiasts seem to be thinking the same as us since nice E30's are worth more then E36's.
Something not mentioned about the E46 is the weight. ISTR a good 100 Kg heavier or more then a 996 C2 and heavier then the E36 which is why the straight line performance is apparently no better then the E36.
Something not mentioned about the E46 is the weight. ISTR a good 100 Kg heavier or more then a 996 C2 and heavier then the E36 which is why the straight line performance is apparently no better then the E36.
I've been moving house and just caught up with this thread. Slider - nice car history, and very interesting what you say about the CSL - something I can probably identify with having test driven a couple and had a passenger lap of the 'Ring in one.
I did drive a couple of 964 C2s, but didn't notice a world of difference between them and the C4. Perhaps if I'd driven the C2 as much as I did the C4 I'd see more difference. Mine was OK on the road and it was a hoot listening to all the hyraulics controlling the 4wd system when it was sliding round the 'Ring, but it still felt a lot like trying to muscle something heavy that didn't want to change direction round some corners - something heavy with rubbish brakes. Having passengered in a 3.2 Carrera during the same trip the difference was so black and white that I can't see the C2 would come close to bridging the gap, though logically it might well be better than the C4.
I did drive a couple of 964 C2s, but didn't notice a world of difference between them and the C4. Perhaps if I'd driven the C2 as much as I did the C4 I'd see more difference. Mine was OK on the road and it was a hoot listening to all the hyraulics controlling the 4wd system when it was sliding round the 'Ring, but it still felt a lot like trying to muscle something heavy that didn't want to change direction round some corners - something heavy with rubbish brakes. Having passengered in a 3.2 Carrera during the same trip the difference was so black and white that I can't see the C2 would come close to bridging the gap, though logically it might well be better than the C4.
Guest
New member
I was lucky enough to drive an E30 M3 a few years ago.... It was a really responsive car.. Done exactly what it was told and really went where it was pointed. The feeling of involvement... In modern terms this car is really outdated but it more than makes up for it in the drive. The E30 was created to take advantage of the Group A and Touring car regs.... And you know when you drive one what its for... [
] On another note a lad that lives close to my homeplace in Donegal works for BMW but in his spare time works at home at youve guessed it "Classic BMW's" . I love driving past his place just for a nosey [8D] He has had all manner of fancy stuff in his yard. He had done work to a 1987 M3 Rally Car which was built in Belgium and rallied there. It wasnt a Prodrive one but it was damn close. He rebuilt the engine ....He would take it out at night for "Test Runs" . If you would hear that machine at full tilt in the dead of the night... The bark of them twin side exit exhausts....! The whine of the dog box... ! You could hear every gearchange ....! And so could the good folk of Killmacrennan [
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