Top end rebuild just diagnosed

[patch]

Well, I knew it couldn't last. 103k and it has just been diagnosed by Northway. Cost seems to be i.r.o £3.5k though a suggestion is to add a clutch change at the same time. Many of you will have experienced this either through having to do it yourself or by buying cars that have already had it done.

I am in pain at the shock to the pocket and would appreciate your collective thoughts as to why it is a good thing to do and how improved the driving experience is afterwards (if true). I look forward to your advice and comments.
All the best
Des

 

[tim_haskins]

Hi DES

Bad news sorry to hear you need to shell out.

Problem is that at 3.5k that would just be top end. What about bottom end? I would prob have this done too. Just to be sure it's all ok. Next up are Cams what are they like? Tin ware is normally a bit rusty and some piece may or may not need changing. You should at least have the clutch inspected and replaced if required as it's basically only the part you pay for. Hopefully all this is ok and you only need minor extras. But you should be aware how things get much more expensive once it's stripped down. Tin can be £200 for 1 piece!

Sorry to sound negative but I think you need to be aware. Some rebuilds have been 5k+

 

[colin129]

Its going to be painful for your pocket I'm afraid. All the cars I looked at at the time seemed to be in the £6k to £7K range, I'm afraid. The basic quotation is just the start.

This is why I didn't look at cars that hadn't been rebuilt as it has to factored in, many people go much further beyond your mileage with no major problems other cars have rebuilds at lower mileages. I think around the 100K mark is fairly typical though.

 

[Steve Brookes]

Agree with the others except to say double the initial estimate because everything changes once they're 'in there'. Even without a bottom end overhaul things like oil pipes, rusty tins, rusty exhaust flanges, etc, etc soon add to the cost.

Does it add to the driving experience? On the whole I would say yes...it's nice to have no embarressing oil leaks and smoke.....and I would say that my seat of the pants dyno says that she has a good amount more power but it took a good 2000 miles before I noticed it. It seemed like it took a while to loosen up and persuade a few shy ponies to come out to play. The day I really noticed it was when my brother's 997C4S couldn't pull away from me down Silverstone's Hangar straight []

I had mine done because I aim for the car to be a keeper but I would also say that you could add at least half of the rebuild cost to the car's current market value. e.g. a friend bought his 964 at a bargain price, had a full rebuild and then sold it* for almost the same price as the car and rebuild had cost.

*only because he needed to and not because he no longer wanted the car (he'd still have it if he could).

 

[Gordon Attar]

You dont need to double the estimate, thats all Northways charge, they have always been one of the cheapest and the £3.5k includes the parts required. They will also not stitch you up with a bottom end unless its knackered, which it shouldnt be at 103k

 

[iangray100]

If you need Cams and tin etc how can the £3.5 cover all these as once you start the list just grows.....as for the bottom end I would get that done or at least re shell the bearing and fit new rings , as your 80% there when the tops off and the bearing and rings are quite cheap, at 103K miles they will be wore but within margin ..so if you expect after £3.5 K to then put another 100K miles on the engine with the same bottom end your will in my eyes be very lucky to get anywhere near that.

When I was doing my rebuild I brought a shed load a 964 engine parts off a guy who only did the top as it was cheaper, 5K miles later the bottom went big style ...I brought some of the mess . He basically wasted £3-4K on a top only and had to buy another 2nd hand engine and start again .

You pay for what you get in this world ....

 

[wagonface]

Once you get over the shock/annoyance of having to shell out for this, you should then start to revel in the fact that you will have a brand new engine which you can enjoy for the rest of your ownership.

 

[asjasj]

Mine was done a couple of years ago at 118k at a total cost of £6.5k - luckily by the previous owner not me!

No tinwear replaced but corrosion advisory given.

Remove/refit 440
Rebuild 2200
Parts 2300 (lots of bearings/guides/studs/gaskets and clutch.
Overhaul heads 500
plus vat

 

[andrew_churcher]

Hi Des - I am interested to know how it was diagnosed? Did you notice loss of performance and it was leaking oil? was it smoking? Was a leak down done to confirm the worst?

I am new to 964's. Mine has no documented rebuild.....car drives ok for now....but does leak some oil....so I am interested to know what the signs are etc.

Rgds,

 

[RLambert]

Your car hasn't done many miles at all so as long as you have a good service history and the engine isn't knocking then I wouldn't even consider splitting the crankcases to look at the bottom end. The cams will be fine too.
Just go with a top end and piston rings and it will be fine.
As for tinwear and that kind of thing, just take a view on that once the motor is out. Worth changing the clutch though if it hasn't been done for a while.
Don't take my word for it though so worth speaking to a couple of other Porsche specialists such as Jaz.

As for noticing any difference, unless your car is really down on power then I doubt you will but as Steve says you will be happy in the knowledge that the engine is putting out the power it should.

 

[Alexander_Drobik]

Hi, if you need a rebuild and want to keep the car - go for a full rebuild of the engine, tinware etc can cost a lot but unless there are holes it does not impact performance. On the engine itself, as it is stripped there may be wear on the bearing surfaces eg on the cam lobes, if so there will likely be wear on the crank bearings. I would not open the engine up unless I could stand the full rebuild. Cost would be from £4k to £6.5k depending what new bits are needed, more if the pistons are whacked (never know this by the way on a running engine).

I had a rebuild some years ago and we found the camshaft lobes (2 of them) had scorched and one of the main bearings was running thin. New bearing prices were ok, the £700 or so for two new cams added to the bill a lot!

My engine had done 75000 miles.

The upside is you can add new things into the build, eg strong con-rod bolts, titanium valve retainers, which means when built you have a more performant engine.

Up to you, but my advice, don't open it unless you can do the full job. With luck as the engine is tripped it will be clear you don't need more than a top end. Good luck!

 

[38F3E1]

I can only share the experience with my old 964. I sold it to a friend of mine who wanted to build a track car. So he had a full top and bottom engine strip down and rebuild. Car had done near 115K miles at the time and engine still felt good. It was my daily driver and always went well. One cam had a pitted lobe and a couple of the main bearings on the bottom end were starting to get rather thin in bearing material. I agree with previous comments that this would not have done another 100K on the bottom end. In this case it was definately beneficial having the bottom end done.

Ian.

PS car goes like stink now after the rebuild (with RS flywheel and clutch as well).

 

[patch]

Andrew,
There was a little oil but not floods, there was some white smoke when stuck in traffic but I had also had a broken steering hose that had sprayed fluid around. The new thing that got me worried was a slight stuttering whistling sound that added iteself to the usual symhony of more normal noises about three weeks ago (under early acceleration). Took it to Northway fro confirmation. Good luck with yours and hope it is ok.

To EVERBODY ELSE thank you for your condolences, opinions, insights and sage advice - a great bunch of online frinds.

All the best
Des

 

[Porker993]

Sorry a bit off topic, but is this an issue on 993s does anyone know ? I have a 1994 993, which has 110,000 miles on it and almost the same engine as a 964 ?

Thanks for any answers,

 

[c4sho6]

Des

If its any conciliation I have just had my 964 3.6 engine fully rebuilt top and bottom end, re-machined crank new bearings, belts, chains, new tinware, the lot. I replaced the clutch and flywheel while the engine was out. Finished only three weeks ago. Yes its a sizable outlay approx £9,500 including labour, however I took the car to the Nurburgring and back and with a few slow laps and put it's first 1,000 miles on the rebuilt engine. I must say it was like driving a completely new car, absolutely transformed. super smooth, plenty of power and to my surprise the car had significantly improved fuel efficiency.

the car has always been well maintained but had done 153,000 miles and had several oil leaks, so it was time.

The way I look at it is that I now have another porsche to enjoy for the next 150,000 miles. It's my keeper.

good luck with it

cheers
Scott

 

[Steve Brookes]

ORIGINAL: Porker993

Sorry a bit off topic, but is this an issue on 993s does anyone know ? I have a 1994 993, which has 110,000 miles on it and almost the same engine as a 964 ?

Thanks for any answers,

If you read between the lines you'll see that many of us go down the road of full rebuilds because we're fed up of them leaking oil. Instead of just having leaks fixed as we go along we bite the bullet and go for the full rebuild. On the whole your 993s are not afflicted with this trait so it's not one of the keys in the decision of whether to rebuild the engine.

You may also notice that few of us can a definitive answer about when and why a rebuild should be done. I certainly can't. In my case I just said...I'm fed up with leaks...I'm keeping the car for the forseeable future....so I'll get it done and bloody well enjoy the results []

 

[Porker993]

OK - thanks Steve - that's put my mind at rest a bit.

Thanks

Mark

 

[kevin]

The original issues at least in part come from poor leakdown figures, this was mostly caused by valve guide wear which causes valve seating issues and so on, now this is the subject of much debate, the undertray, too much heat being retained, poor design and so on. You take your choice. Since then other issues have occaisionally arisen such as crank wear, cam regrinding and oil squirters losing oil pressure. But overwhelmingly most people go in because of a leak these days, and thats when the whole lot above unfurls.

Mine was very slightly moist until my first trip to Le Mans, it isn't now....

Kevin

 

[Gordon Attar]

Des

Either Ray Northway himself or more likely Paul (90%) will be doing the rebuild. You need to trust them as they only advise on rebuilds if they are neccessary, they will advise you what needs doing and they are honest about there assessments, more often than not they only do the top end. You need to check what is in the top end rebuild and whats not, a lot of people are surprised by whats in in Northways £3.5k rebuilds compared to some of the competitors, so it would be good to double check and post the answer.

When I bought my 964 the previous owner was told it needed a rebuild due to a few minor leaks, Ray and Paul told me it was fine. I started using it as a daily driver for nearly 2 years and the leaks disappeared! It then became a garage queen and the leaks started up again(still only small) after 3.5 years and 25k the engine was still fine . I only sold it because of the 993TT. Guess what I recently found out from someone who purchased it 3 months ago, that the new owner rebuilt the engine within 6 months and I know that it didnt need it!!

 

[Gordon Attar]

ORIGINAL: Porker993

Sorry a bit off topic, but is this an issue on 993s does anyone know ? I have a 1994 993, which has 110,000 miles on it and almost the same engine as a 964 ?

Thanks for any answers,

Short answer is this is not a 993 issue at all.

Briefly, early 964's (can include 92 reg, 92 models usually ok) is that there was no gasket between the cylinder head and with the Ali block, this causes the leaks and more often than not the leaks are around the "through bolts" and occasionally one will have gone. Other main issue is leaking pipework. These two main issues were sorted out which is why people want J(check vin number) and K reg models as they basically dont have the problems.