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Toyo R888 - Advice on pressures please!

tscaptain

PCGB Admin
Member
Having trashed the Michelin Pilot Sports that came with the spare wheels I've now put R888's on for the next outing on track. With the MPS's I tried to maintain the road pressures as the tyres got hot, checking after each session (rightly or wrongly!) It has been suggested by one of our GT3 brethren that I should run 30 hot all round on the Toyo's, the reason being that they get "unsticky" after a few laps if the pressures are too high. I have read through a thread on the GT3 forum regarding pressures and there appears to be mixed views on pressures. Clearly there is a big difference between a GT3 with an aggressive suspension set up and my lowly Gen 2 C2S with a fast road set up by Chris at CG. So any thoughts/suggestions on what hot pressures to run chaps? Cheers [;)]
 
Alan, there are so many different 'theories' that you're probably best to just go with your own preferences.

For what it's worth, on my C4S, I tend to run the Toyos for the first stint, at 4 psi below standard pressures. After that it's really a question of what the car feels like on the circuit; if you want to dial out understeer, run the rears proportionately higher than the fronts when you check pressures and if you want to dial out oversteer, raise the fronts proportionately. Hope this makes sense! This is only relative (oversteer/understeer) as you can't do much else (dampers/roll bars etc)

I'd be interested to see what 'wear rate' you get with the Toyos - mine did 4 trackdays and although I could have squeezed one more day, if it had been wet they would have been 'interesting', not to mention illegal on the journey home.

Enjoy
 
Alan - and following on from earlier conversation I forgot to mention that when I ordered my first set of track specific tyres I was advised to do a couple of 5-10 mile medium/fast road outings on them to give them some gentle heat cycles before using them on track - from memory the intention was that this would 'prepare' the tyre and result in more consistent performance throughout the life of the tyre - the suggestion being that otherwise performance would be noticeably poor in the second 'half' of the tyre's life - but what I don't honestly know is whether this was tyre & compund specific advice or generic - hopefully someone else will be along with something more definitive soon...
 
My driving is funny enough, thank you Clive, without adding to it.
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But it does help with a constant tyre pressure....
On the Swisss trip mine were altering through the day where Clives were staying quite constant...

I however think it was because I was trying harder [;)]

garyw
 
Think you need N2 not N2O for that, Gary[;)] If I knew what pressure, I might put N2 in. If I used Helium would that reduce the weight of my car and, therefore, I could go faster?!!! [8|][:D]
 
ORIGINAL: tscaptain
If I used Helium would that reduce the weight of my car and, therefore, I could go faster?!!! [8|][:D]
But you wouldn't as the downforce would be reduced [;)]

garyw
 
Maybe not around the bendy bits but how about in a straight line!![;)] Anyway, all I'm looking for is a ball park figure to start off with cold in the Toyos because it seems that road tyre pressures certainly won't work well. I know it will be trial and error but it would short circuit the process if I had some idea where to begin. Thanks for the earlier replies, chaps.
 
I have never used Toyos and have always used sport cups on my track wheels. Michelin recommend reducing the presures all round on track to 2.3 bar hot or 2.1 cold. This compares to the standard presurres of 2.3 front 2.7 rear. Hard track use drives up the temperatures so I suspect you should be looking at dropping the Toyos pressures as well as you start your trial and error. The GT3 guys would be the best people to ask what they do with their Toyo pressures.
 
Alan,

To arrive at correct pressures you're going to need a track, some time and a tyre temperature gauge. [&:]

Do a few laps to stabilise temperatures/pressures, adjust the pressures to equalise them, note them down, then do a few more laps.

Immediately come in and take the temps of each tyre at 3 spots on the tread area - inside, middle and outside .

Assuming Chris has got your geometry correct, inside and outside should be close, so adjust pressures according to the centre reading. Too low means the tyre is under-inflated, too high and its over-inflated. Clearly, a clockwise track will place more load on the nearside tyres and vice versa, so you need to allow for that in the final analysis.

Adjust in say ¼ bar stages and repeat. You're aiming for similar readings across the whole width of the tyre contact patch.

Once there, you can play with the front and rear pressures to alter handling characteristics. Unlike an earlier poster, I would say higher rear pressures increase under-steer and higher front pressures increase oversteer but this is mainly down to how individual drivers perceive changes. [:eek:]

It's long winded but worthwhile for a better track experience. [:)]

This is all good stuff and definitely deserves at least a pint, I would think, when I'm next in Tavistock! [8|]

Regards,

Clive

PS I have a tyre temp. gauge if you need one, although the latest infra red ones are quite cheap now.
 
Toyo UK suggest 32 - 34 front, 38 rear HOT for 18 and 19 inch wheels on 996 / 997. Equates to approx 30 all round COLD depending on how you drive / the weather.

Toyos run best at higher pressures than MPSC and Corsas but can feel a bit squirelly at the rear if you run them too high - 40 psi or more HOT - interestingly, according to Toyo USA, this feeling that they are going "off" does not translate into reduced lap times, but gives better wear. Although it slowed me down because I didn't like the feel of the back under braking.

I run 32 and 38 on my GT3 and go quickly,, but not balls out and pyrometer reads uniformally across back tyres, only 2 degree variation in fronts and the car feels fantastic. Running conservative geo too : 1.5 camber all round.

I was the blue one at Castle Combe.

Cheers

Mark
 
Yes, I remember Mark. Thanks for that. Certainly looks like 30 cold is a good starting point. Are you back to CC on the 18th June?
 
Nope. Goodwood week before.
Good luck on the Toyos - you won't believe the difference. Just watch the braking in the wet - grip is surprisingly good, but ABS cuts in very early under heavy braking.
 
Wet? 18th June? Oh, yeah ok, wet then........!
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Have fun at Goodwood, must get up there sometime soon.
 
This from Toyo's man might be the best response.

I can help here. The following was provided to me by Toyo's motorsport man, Alan Meaker. If ever your are having a TD and there will be a good gathering of Toyo users (or perhaps better - potential Toyo users), Alan will come along and probe your rubber.



My name is Alan Meaker, I am the Motorsport Manager for Toyo Tyres (UK) Ltd.

I was at Rockingham on the Saturday 1ST March at the LOT trackday and worked with a couple of cars using our R888 tyre regarding pressures and tread temperatures.

What I would like to do is to offer some advice on tyre temperatures and pressures and how to achieve the best from our tyres when taking part in either trackdays or racing.

The R888 has a semi race construction (very stiff) and a race tread compound. The optimum tread temperature range is between 85C and 95C measured using a probe type pyrometer, and ideally a maximum difference across the tread of 9C. The maximum hot pressure we recommend is 40psi. Camber angles up to 5 degrees are permissible but the final setting will depend on tread temperatures. It is advisable to have as much positive castor as practical as castor induces a beneficial camber change during cornering. I recommend that the tyres be put through 2 heat cycles before hard use.


The pressures you use will initially depend on the weight of the car, too little pressure on a heavy car can lead to over deflection of the tyre and subsequent failure.

Below are some basic settings:

VEHICLE WEIGHT COLD PRESSURE HOT PRESSURE
Very Light < 800kg 17 - 22 psi 22 - 29 psi
Light 800kg - 1000kg 20 - 26 psi 24 - 32 psi
Heavy 1000kg - 1400kg 23 - 27 psi 28 - 40 psi
Very Heavy > 1400kg 27 - 35 psi 37 - 40 psi


As a tyre gets hotter the pressure increases, this is due to the moisture in the air. The cold pressure you set to achieve a desired hot pressure will depend on the conditions on the day i.e. ambient and track temperature, wet or dry. If the day/track is cold you will need to start with a higher cold pressure as the tyre will not get as hot therefore the pressure increase will not be so great.
Hot pressures must be balanced side to side. Once the tyres have cooled you will find that you will have a difference in pressure side to side, if you have been racing on a right hand track you will find the offside pressures will usually be higher than the nearside.


Changing hot inflation pressures by small amounts can be used to fine tune handling.

Reduce Oversteer Reduce rear pressures or increase front pressures
Increase Oversteer Increase rear pressures or reduce front pressures
Reduce Understeer Reduce front pressures or increase rear pressures
Increase Understeer Increase front pressures or reduce rear pressures


Achieving the required tread temperatures will depend again on the conditions on the day i.e. ambient and track temperature, wet or dry.

You often here competitors saying "My tyres started to go of towards the end of the race", this is usually due to the tread getting to hot.

The tread temperatures are constantly changing through out a race, hotter when cornering and cooler when on the straights and cooling even more when you are slowing to come into the pits. Therefore the temps you record in the pits will be lower than those during the race. So if you record temperatures within the range given above the probability is the temps will be too high during the race.

Increasing your tyre pressures will cause your tread temperatures to increase, more pressure stiffens the tyre's casing which results in the tread having to do more work resulting in the tread getting hotter. Lowering your pressures will cause them to decrease.


Inevitably changing one thing will affect other things, the whole set up of your car is a compromise between anything that is adjustable.

Some of you are also asking about different compounds. Originally we only had one compound "˜GG' (medium hard), but we have now introduced some sizes in a "˜SG' (soft/wet) compound. This was done primarily for sprint/hillclimb (around 60 second runs) where the distances covered are relatively short and you need the tyres to work/heat up very quickly. This is not a compound I would recommend for race/trackday dry use as the tyres will go off very quickly.

The sizes that will be available are:

185/60R13, 205/60R13, 195/50R15, 205/50R15, 225/45R16, 225/45R17.

Another subject is the introduction of our Proxes R1R. This tyre was due to be launched at the beginning of 2008, unfortunately this has been delayed to at least mid 2008 but there is a good chance it will be latter than this. Regarding sizes, initially we will have a rear fit (225/45ZR17) but not the front (195/50R16).

I hope this is of some use to you.

If I can be of any further assistance please give me a call.

01933 414537


Best Regards

Alan.
 

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