trackday car / fast road

[sawood12]

Fen's right, the odd M030 set up I have actually come accross over the past year or so just look tatty, rusty and just knackered so I didn't want to spend the extra cash. However once you've got a car with M030 that has the big brakes you could replace the suspention (front struts and rear shocks) with a decent aftermarket kit such as KW for a comparable price/cheaper price than brand new replacement M030 set up - and it's arguably better and more modern setup than the M030 (?) Having said that you can still fit bigger brakes to non-M030 hubs but you will need mounting brackets.

 

[jamescharnley]

Is the earlier 220bhp turbo much different from the 250bhp?

 

[Hilux]

For track days and sunny days in general I don't think you can beat a Caterham

Westfields regularly outrun caterhams, I know, I had one and did [] I'm still a westfield forum contributor so see all the Blatchat comments[][]

C/hams/westy`s/7`s are fine on twisty ones but rubbish on longer ones as they have aerodynamics like a brick and need huge power to get past 120mph

 

[ClubRacer]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

C/hams/westy`s/7`s are fine on twisty ones but rubbish on longer ones as they have aerodynamics like a brick and need huge power to get past 120mph

I guess it has huge power but I was pulling over 7000rpm (150mph) in a Caterham CSR260 into Pif Paf at Bedford!

 

[Hilux]

Excellent but a Zetec is approx 160-180? and you had 260?

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: jamescharnley

Is the earlier 220bhp turbo much different from the 250bhp?

Engine - The 220bhp cars are fitted with a K26/6 turbo and the 250bhp cars have a K26/8 the difference being the size of the compressor which allows the 250bhp cars to maintian the max boost level to the red line where as the 220bhp cars' turbos' will deliver max boost at around 3500rpm and it will start to bleed off boost gradually to a lower level as the revs rise to the red line. Other than that the engines are basically identical apart from later additions due to the fittment of Catalytic converters and other things useless things.

Suspension and Brakes - M030 lowered and adjustable Koni suspension, stiffer ARB's and the larger front brakes carried over from the 928S4 were fitted. Not sure if M030 was std on all 250 turbos but it certainly was on the later cars. The 220bhp cars did have uprated suspension over the lux's and S cars and it was carried over to the S2.

Gearbox - Although the ratios are the same the 1st and 2nd gears are hardened, the driveshafts are toughened, an oil cooler is fitted (only really required if you are tracking the car alot) and an LSD.

0-60 times - 5.9 secs for the 220bhp cars and 5.6 secs for the 250bhp cars (depending upon where you read the figures from)

M030 and the uprated gearbox were optional extras on the 220bhp cars so you might be lucky and find one that's been specc'd up. Other than that they are the same car. I got a 220bhp car purely because I bought the car on condition. If you are going to modify the car you can easily get a 220bhp car upto around 280 ish bhp with the K26/6 turbo and if you were to simply replace the turbo you'd be good for inexcess of 300bhp safely and without too much trouble. Obviously the key to your decision is how much do you want the M030 and the uprated gearbox. For regular track work you definately want it. For primarily road work with the odd track day M030 might be a bit uncomfortable and the lower ride height might cause you a few scrapes. Uprated brakes are always a good idea on any car if only for the looks!!!

I've never driven a 250bhp car but i'd be surpirsed if you could tell a great difference in performance on the road under 'normal' driving conditions. On the track though i'm sure the extra 30bhp and associated torque would be noticable and useful.

Don't go away thinking a 220bhp car is a slouch. Mine currently is practically standard apart from the addition of a dual port wastegate, Janspeed exhaust and a tweak of the max boost level from stock 0.75 bar to 0.8 bar and I got 237.5bhp on the rollers of truth at Weltmiester. In reality the car is scarrily fast and you get a good strong kick in the back when the boost cuts in. It definately has noticably more umph than my mates 222bhp Leon Cupra R and my other mates Civic Type R - and it even feels more than a match for a work collegues 993C2 (difficult to tell due to the smoother power delivery of the 993) and normal Boxters feel pedestrian in comparison. Max speed i've done is 120mph but it would still accellarate strongly at that speed so I am in no doubt that the top speed of 157mph is achievable. I am looking to fit a MAF kit and go to 1 bar boost which should get me upto 270-280 bhp but in reality my true reason for doing this is to irradicate lag rather than going for out and out power. Since i'm looking to do a few track days a year my planned future mods are suspension (gettting sick of looking around for M030 so will probably go for an aftermarket set up) and brakes (probably 928S4 brakes but would like the big blacks!!).

Either way Guards Red is the colour to go for!!

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

ORIGINAL: jamescharnley

Is the earlier 220bhp turbo much different from the 250bhp?

Engine - The 220bhp cars are fitted with a K26/6 turbo and the 250bhp cars have a K26/8 the difference being the size of the compressor which allows the 250bhp cars to maintian the max boost level to the red line where as the 220bhp cars' turbos' will deliver max boost at around 3500rpm and it will start to bleed off boost gradually to a lower level as the revs rise to the red line. Other than that the engines are basically identical apart from later additions due to the fittment of Catalytic converters and other things useless things.

Suspension and Brakes - M030 lowered and adjustable Koni suspension, stiffer ARB's and the larger front brakes carried over from the 928S4 were fitted. Not sure if M030 was std on all 250 turbos but it certainly was on the later cars. The 220bhp cars did have uprated suspension over the lux's and S cars and it was carried over to the S2.

Gearbox - Although the ratios are the same the 1st and 2nd gears are hardened, the driveshafts are toughened, an oil cooler is fitted (only really required if you are tracking the car alot) and an LSD.

0-60 times - 5.9 secs for the 220bhp cars and 5.6 secs for the 250bhp cars (depending upon where you read the figures from)

M030 and the uprated gearbox were optional extras on the 220bhp cars so you might be lucky and find one that's been specc'd up. Other than that they are the same car. I got a 220bhp car purely because I bought the car on condition. If you are going to modify the car you can easily get a 220bhp car upto around 280 ish bhp with the K26/6 turbo and if you were to simply replace the turbo you'd be good for inexcess of 300bhp safely and without too much trouble. Obviously the key to your decision is how much do you want the M030 and the uprated gearbox. For regular track work you definately want it. For primarily road work with the odd track day M030 might be a bit uncomfortable and the lower ride height might cause you a few scrapes. Uprated brakes are always a good idea on any car if only for the looks!!!

I've never driven a 250bhp car but i'd be surpirsed if you could tell a great difference in performance on the road under 'normal' driving conditions. On the track though i'm sure the extra 30bhp and associated torque would be noticable and useful.

Don't go away thinking a 220bhp car is a slouch. Mine currently is practically standard apart from the addition of a dual port wastegate, Janspeed exhaust and a tweak of the max boost level from stock 0.75 bar to 0.8 bar and I got 237.5bhp on the rollers of truth at Weltmiester. In reality the car is scarrily fast and you get a good strong kick in the back when the boost cuts in. It definately has noticably more umph than my mates 222bhp Leon Cupra R and my other mates Civic Type R - and it even feels more than a match for a work collegues 993C2 (difficult to tell due to the smoother power delivery of the 993) and normal Boxters feel pedestrian in comparison. Max speed i've done is 120mph but it would still accellarate strongly at that speed so I am in no doubt that the top speed of 157mph is achievable. I am looking to fit a MAF kit and go to 1 bar boost which should get me upto 270-280 bhp but in reality my true reason for doing this is to irradicate lag rather than going for out and out power. Since i'm looking to do a few track days a year my planned future mods are suspension (gettting sick of looking around for M030 so will probably go for an aftermarket set up) and brakes (probably 928S4 brakes but would like the big blacks!!).

Either way Guards Red is the colour to go for!!

Close, but I'll pick you up on one or two things if I may? The early 250 cars had the M030, from MY90 to end of production it became an option. I don't believe it was available on the 220 cars as it was developed for the Silver Rose limited edition in 1987/88. 220 cars can have LSD, but they never have the bigger brakes (and hence hubs capable of carrying the bigger brakes), thicker driveshafts, gearbox oil cooler, hardened 1st and 2nd gears and thicker anti-roll bars/torsion bars. I've had one 220 and two 250 cars and I think for the road the 220 is nicer. The 250 turbo doesn't hold full boost all the way to the redline, but it holds it longer than the 220. The tradeoff is gobsmacking latency in the standard car that is nowhere near so bad in the 220 making the 220 feel quicker on the road than the 250 in my experience. My 220 had a 250 ECU (by accident) though so it may have been helped by running the 250 cars' boost level with the smaller turbo's quicker response. For the track the 250's extras of LSD with oil cooler, hardened lower gears, bigger driveshafts, bigger brakes and stiffer springs are all desirable. I'd disregard M030 as it was only ever suspension on the 944. Later 968 M030 anti-roll bars are better yet and a good idea even on the M030 944. Unless recently rebuilt or replaced the dampers will be worn and I'd advocate replacing even those on an M030 944 with a more modern and track-focussed alternative for serious track work. The other bits get very expensive to add very quickly and it's much better to buy a car that already has them if you want them. In terms of performance there's nothing in it once you replace the turbo and remap the EMS.

 

[jamescharnley]

so best to buy a good cheap 220bhp & spend the difference on some KW suspension & a brake upgrade ( assuming all 250bhp cars seam to be on offer for signicantly more than the 220bhp ones)

 

[Fen]

For track work I was actually suggesting a 250 car but not to worry about M030 as you will get bigger brakes, LSD and stronger transmission. You will never add that stuff to a 220 without spending several times the difference in price between comparable condition 220 and 250 cars. 250 cars often had leather seats which 220's did not and if you are going for buckets and no rear seat you can get in excess of £500 for nice leather chairs to offset the cost. You can also sell 250 Turbo 16" wheels for far more than 220 wheels if you want to go 17".

 

[sawood12]

I don't think there is much of a price difference between 220bhp cars and 250bhp cars bearing in mind that 220bhp cars only ran up until '87, maybe early '88 before the 250 cars took over so a good late 220 car will be roughly the same price as a good early 250 car.

I bought my car on condition and I really think that that is the way to go, in my view it's the only way to buy any Porsche. Part of your original question was about turbo's (or any 944/968 for that matter) becoming a money pit and the answer is that if you buy a pup then it will be a money pit and a very deep one at that. If you've got time on your hands then you can afford to wait for the right car with the exact spec you want to come along, but unless you are willing to wait for that car to come along then my advice would be to buy the car on condition. I'm not sure how accomplished driver you are but I would think that you would have to be one hell of a driver to out-drive a std 220 car - I have a wish-list of mods, not because I think I need them but because I want them - it's become a bit of a hobby. I can guarantee that if you buy a good car you will love every minute of it.

 

[Fen]

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. I certainly don't mean to run down the 220 cars, in fact for someone not looking to get into the modifying spiral they make a good half-way house between the S2 and the 250 cars. They are also very capable on track, but ultimately the 250 has some options that are "better" for track driving. Of the regulars on here who have gone beyond the "normal" modifications on their Turbos only John Sims started out with a 220 car and he has since fitted 250 hubs and brakes and a gearbox from a 250 with LSD and hardened gears. While he now has a car every bit as "good" as a 250 I bet he'd confirm he'd have been better starting with a 250 car in the first place looking back.

 

[jamescharnley]

If all 250's have the big brakes & LSD then I can definatly see the benefit of searching one out []

 

[Fen]

They do, and they have the hubs that can take the even bigger brakes as a direct bolt-on if required.

 

[Hilux]

There's nothing in it, I've been quicker than some Westies (and caterhams) and slower than others, it's all a giggle to me[] As it goes mine will quite happily see a genuine 130 (6500rpm in 5th), with aeroscreens though, that windscreen is a mare for aerodynamics

I know [] its all a wind up between westfield forum and blatchat []

Good point re aeroscreens, standard screened cars will make around 120 ish but will get there slowly towards the end due to drag, as I said it takes a very powerful one to get above those speeds.

I sold mine cos it was fun blasting away from porkers/scooby`s/EVO`s/M3`s et al on the bends and twisty bits only for them to catch up at higher speeds however my G27 was another story completely as it was seamless to about 150 but you ended up with very very light steering at those speeds and it didnt have power steering [][]

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: Fen

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. I certainly don't mean to run down the 220 cars, in fact for someone not looking to get into the modifying spiral they make a good half-way house between the S2 and the 250 cars. They are also very capable on track, but ultimately the 250 has some options that are "better" for track driving. Of the regulars on here who have gone beyond the "normal" modifications on their Turbos only John Sims started out with a 220 car and he has since fitted 250 hubs and brakes and a gearbox from a 250 with LSD and hardened gears. While he now has a car every bit as "good" as a 250 I bet he'd confirm he'd have been better starting with a 250 car in the first place looking back.

I didn't think you were trying to run down the 220 cars at all, without doubt you are better off going for a good 250 car and I wouldn't recommend a 220 car specifically other than for the reason of buying a good condition car, in fact I was considering getting Dan's (Bigglesdan) car that he sold last year for the very reasons you've just stated.