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Two steps forward, four steps back!

PMMatthews

PCGB Member
Member
Over the next couple of weeks I plan to share some information on a couple of useful DIY enhancements I've discovered for my 964 Targa, along with some requests for help on four current issues which I still need to resolve.

In this email, I thought I'd give some basic descriptions so I can get a feel for the level of interest in learning more about my DIY fixes and for the information on the issues which I need to provide to help potential samaritans understand the exact problem I'm encountering.

Fix 1: Aware that my roof has a tendency to leak in the rain, and having researched what role damaged seals might have in the level of wind roar from the roof at speed, I started to read up on using silicone sealant for repairs to damaged rubber seals. However, I came across details of a product recently launched in the UK called 'Sugru'. More details can be found here: https://sugru.com/. I'm not going to push a commercial product at anyone, but I found it very easy to use in shaping new silicone rubber that bonds extremely well to the existing but damaged sections of my roof seals. The product is inexpensive, comes in multiple colours (including black) and is widely available from one of the leading nationwide UK DIY stores. I'll post some photos of the repaired sections of my roof seals in a further post.

Fix 2: During my research on wind roar, I also came across a post from a US Targa owner who reckoned he had reduced the noise from his roof at speed by using a 5mm-think cardon fibre rod in the centre of his targa roof frame, parallel to the sides of the roof, as a brace. His aim was to ensure the frame remained at tension to help prevent the lift that's otherwise exerted on the targa roof by the airflow passing over the outside of the roof when travelling at speed. I found it easy to find a UK supplier of standard length / diameter carbon fibre rods and, having purchased one (10mm diameter, 1m length), to cut it to the specifications which our American friend had recommended (1/8th of an inch longer than the measurement between the inside of the front and rear sections of the targa frame close to the central hinge). It was easiest to put the brace in place with the roof off the car and I used some thin rubber (from a cycle inner tube) to help ensure the carbon rod didn't slip and damage the crackle finish on the targa frame. The result ... no wind noise at all even at the max. speeds I've travelled thus far (up to 100mph)! Again, I'll post some photos in another post.

Issue 1: I've owned my car for 12 years and it's always had a problem with a misfire / stalling after a period driving in the rain. Various suggestions have been made by mechanics over the years, and expensive components replaced, always without resolving the problem. I've felt we were onto something with the suggestion that it might be an issue with the HT leads. Indeed, one Porsche specialist, with Bosch electrical expertise as one of its claims, reckoned the problem was caused by poor routing of HT leads. Later, when this hadn't worked, they replaced one lead altogether (at a cost of £120 for the lead). However, driving down a wet autoroute en route to Le Mans this year, it quickly became apparent that the misfire and stalling remain a big issue. The problem seems worse with the amount of rainfall on the road. Running in the tyre tracks of cars in front, and keeping the revs high, both clearly reduced the propensity of the car to start misfiring. If the car stalled and came to a standstill, a short wait (to allow damp electrics to dry out with the engine warmth, perhaps?) was all it took before the engine would run smoothly again.

Issue 2: If my engine has been running hot (for example, in the queues at the Eurotunnel terminal), the car's ignition refuses to re-start the car after stopping the engine. The ignition lights some on, but turning the key gives absolutely nothing. No starter motor turning over, no clicks, just nothing. Again, simply waiting (for the engine to cool, it seems) leads to the problem going away. Then the car starts first turn of the key again, with an immediate 'fire-up'. I have an aftermarket alarm / immobiliser and I wonder if this struggles in a hot engine bay. Otherwise, it could be another component that doesn't like the heat. I read somewhere recently that the switch to raise the spoiler at any speed had been added by Porsche to allow owners to address oil leak issues in the early models caused by the engine running hot. Maybe, raising the spoiler will prevent the engine bay from getting so hot that this issue becomes a problem.

Issue 3: I have 2 pretty good quality Bridgestone SO2 tyres on the rear axle, but I really need to replace the fronts. However, I've scoured the websites for new SO2 tyres for my Cup 17" wheels without success. I'm tempted to replace all 4 tyres with some new sticky rubber (Yokohamas or Michelins, maybe), but I could do without the expense given the other issues with the car. Is it possible to still buy new SO2s anywhere, or do I have to simply bite the bullet?

Issue 4: It was an MOT advisory issue last year that the front springs were starting to corrode. The next MOT is due in September, so I'm starting to think about what needs to be done on this. Again, I've read somewhere recently that this is becoming a recurrent issue with the 964, but what does it mean in terms of the remedial work required and what are my options should I need to keep the cost down?

Sorry for the long message. All thoughts and helpful suggestions would be gratefully received.

Paul
 
I can't imagine you haven't considered this, but issue 2 sounds like DME, have you changed it already?
 
Thanks, Colin.

I haven't changed the DME following the most recent incidents, but I have asked my usual independents a few times now to resolve this problem and had assumed they would have considered this and discounted it. How does the DME relay get affected by the car running hot and in what way is it malfunctioning?

For most of the time the car is running perfectly - it's only if I have to switch off when the engine has been running hot (eg. if stuck in a long queue) that I find it won't subsequently restart (ie. it's exactly as if the immobiliser has come on).

There was heavy traffic queuing to board the Eurotunnel on the Friday before Le Mans. I wouldn't have had to switch off, but I got selected for the security checks (where they are testing your steering wheel and door handles for traces of explosives) and you must switch off. Embarassingly, the car wouldn't restart and we had to push it off to one side. 15-20mins later (we opened the engine cover to help cool the engine bay) and it fired up immediately with the first turn of the key.

Cheers again,

Paul
 
What Colin said as a first test. Just means you need to run it for a long journey. Alternatively carry a DME spare and when it occurs again do a swap and see if it fires up.

To be clear, is the engine/starter motor turning but not firing or just silent dead when you turn the key (i.e. all dash lights as normal but next key turn no change, nothing happening)?

S02A's (if 205's) here https://www.tyreleader.co.uk/car-tyres/bridgestone/potenza-s-02-a/205-50-zr17-89y-69719
Otherwise if 215's then i hear their RE050A's are good too. Am interesetd though in the new range Potenza Adrenalin RE002's so anyone who has feedback on these would be welcome to share info.

Issue 1 misfire in the rain - do you have the engine undertray attached or has this been removed?

Marcus
 
As the engine doesn't crank I would strongly suspect the Alarm.
If it's a Thatcham type the immobiliser has 2 circuits that are isolated when armed. One disconnects the ignition circuit and the 2nd disconnects the starter. Also they self arm after a few seconds of ignition being turned off.

Thatcham from AA site.
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/security/approved_products.html

By the way Marcus, the front tyres should be 205x50 or 225x45 so as not to mess with the speedo and if a C4 the AWD. I have used some 215x45 and it didn't appear to cause problems but the speedo loses accuracy.

Regards springs. Take them off, quite easy to do, you'll need a spring compressor and a Sharpie to mark the alignment holes when you remove the hub from the bottom of the damper, and clean them up with a wire brush attachment to a drill on a flexible drive. Then take them to your local powder coating place. There's a write up in next months PP.

Water ingress, is the tinware in good condition? Are the holes that allow access to the bottom of the nuts on the engine mounts open or covered with a blank grommet? Have you opened up the distributor and checked that the little toothed belt that drives the secondary unit isn't broken?

Any work you do or modifications, take lots of photos and I'll put them in PP for the rest of the members. I always need ideas and photos for my monthly column.

Let us know how you get on.

 
Thanks Marcus and David,

As David has picked up, the engine doesn't crank. The lights are all on, then I turn the key to start and ... nothing. No engine turning, no audible clicks, no change to the dashboard lights. I can cycle through locking / unlocking, or use the command sequence via the remote control to switch off the immobiliser after it has switched on automatically, but the car still won't do anything. Only leaving it for a while (I believe, while something somewhere is cooling down) will get it to start normally again.

I've suspected that it might be the alarm. I had a Thatcham approved Laserline unit fitted about 10 years ago by a reputable alarm and car audio company in Kingston-upon-Thames. They've long since stopped fitting alarms, but still do car audio. I need to go in and ask where they are likely to have installed the alarm unit. If it's in the engine bay, then I can get a recommendation on how to protect it from excessive heat and otherwise see if they have come across this issue with any other installations of this particular alarm.

As a follow-up question on this, I've read somewhere that the two ignition packs are meant to be mounted using some heat-resistant grease to help isolate them from the heat generated in the engine bay? I can't see that this has been done, so will check this out at the upcoming service, if this is the correct requirement.

I've carried a DME relay in the car for many years; so long in fact that I can't remember its provenance! I will get a new Porsche one and try swapping it over when the problem next appears. I'm a bit hesitant though as my car needed sorting out with a Bosch hammer the last time I changed the DME relay.

All of the engine tinware is in place. I haven't personally checked the distributor belt, but the problem of misfiring / stalling in the wet dates back several years and many services by reputable Porsche independents in and around South and West London. I'm pretty sure they will have checked the distributor belt at each service. My car dates from 1993, so has always had the breather tube fitted to it.

I will check whether the grommets are in place on the engine mounts. The car must have stalled a dozen times in the pouring rain between Le Mans and Rouen driving back up after the 24H this year. I had a feeling that it was more important to limit the spray thrown up by the nearside wheels than the offside ones (our tyres may be wide, but if you're taking advantage of driving in the tyre tracks of an artic to reduce the spray created by your tyres, you still have to leave one side or the other on the fully wet section of the road!).That's the same side as the distributors and coils, etc, of course. It could be water thrown up onto the underside of the car, or gaining entry once the spolier is raised. I am really hoping that someone can reply to say they understand exactly what the problem is from the9ir nown experience!

I'm in France at the moment, staying between Le Mans and Tours, having been to the LM Classic at the weekend. It was awesome seeing just how many Porsches are still racing in the classes for cars from the late sixties and seventies, and few cars from any era are more impressive to see in action than the 917 and 935. It was my son's 14th birthday today, so we took him for dinner at the Hotel de France in La Chartre-sur-la-Loire. Great meal and very interesting seeing all the history of this iconic hotel. One for the bucket list of every petrolhead.

When I get back at the weekend, I'll take some pictures of the repairs to the targa seals, plus my roof brace, and post a more complete explanation here.

Paul

 
Interesting stuff Paul...

I ask some detail re hot starting as I have exactly the same issue and have had for the since owning the car. Like you, after a long leg to Rouen a few years ago we stopped for a ferry trip across the Sienne there. Engine off and no ignition until 10-15 mins later. This year I did a very 'spirited' 3-day North Coast 500 with others (for us 750 miles) - another bucket list drive story. On two occasions the ignition failed - i.e. when stopping for fuel.

Now, I'm convinced it's the very crap aftermarket immobiliser that was fitted before my time (an Autowatch 475Li). Convinced, because under normal use there is a blue LED flashing indicator when not in the car - immobiliser on but waiting for keyfob button press to disarm. When button is pressed LED indicator goes out and you have a few seconds to turn the key before it drops back to armed mode. Now, for me, each time the car has failed to start after a very long run and given a couple of minutes break, the LED indicator is NOT back to its' normal intermittant flashing state and waiting for a disarm signal to allow the engine to fire up. When cooled down (ergo not so hot?) the LED is back to normal flashing and I'm good to go. Does your system have any flashing indicators under different modes? Have you also tried trying different button press combos to 'release' the system?

One thing that did work for me when in Scotland on the NC500 was I armed the immobiliser and alarm from the keyfob when outside the car. Somehow the normal LED flashing mode returned. Now it could be that I caught it just at the right time as it had just reached cool down time window, who knows. All very frustrating as I can't see why, when I've done other very long journeys, I don't get this more regularly. There must be some temp tipping point in the immobiliser system/component that is reached and that's it, nada.

A few months ago I completely ripped out my interrior, all panels and carpet to replace with all new. Replaced/repaired sound deadening and had to deal with all sorts of (redundant) cabling from previous owner audio and alram installs by half-baked electricians who leave any unsed cabling tucked away. Pulled out what I could trace to a cut end but cautious about wanting to remove anything non-audio. My intention is to 'de-install' the Autowatch and get back to reusing the Porsche alarm and then fit a dead switch switch soemwhere. Good to know what else you find after any further investigations...

Dave, yup indeed. I mistakingly took my 205 fronts as 45's.

Paul, had a 964 racing buddy who was down at CLM and the pics and movie clips he was sending back made great watching. Hoping I'll find it on Motors TV some point soon. Any good pics post them up for all.
 
Good deal on tyres
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/162059507386?clk_rvr_id=1061521213581&rmvSB=true

I have an after market alarm on my Cab and the brain is fitted under the drivers seat. The siren is mounted in the engine bay which has electronics inside too and is not just a siren box as it has a battery that sounds if the power is cut at the battery.
On a trip to Germany I drove for 3 hours through the most torrential thunderstorm I've ever experienced, speeds of 30mph on the autobahn were excessive. Next day a weird sound was emitting from the siren and I couldn't turn off the alarm. Eventually after disconnecting the battery it reset but the siren in the engine bay was dead. When I got home I replaced the siren and normal service was resumed.
I doubt your alarm brain is in the engine bay, there isn't enough space. Cheap components in the electronics is probably the cause of a slow to respond alarm relay. Electrolytic capacitors and relays are the major problems with age.

Regards the problems with wet driving, there is a rubber seal/skirt that surrounds the tinware and provides a seal against wet ingress from the road. I found that mine had got kinks and the skirt was on the inside instead of the outside of the engine bay in a couple of places. I had to support the engine on a jack and undo the engine mounts and gently lower the engine enough to sort the problem.

To check the distributor disconnect the HT lead into the secondary unit and start the car, if it won't start the belt is broken although with your current problem with the alarm this will be more difficult to do.
You can check the state of the HT leads by parking the car in a very dark road and lifting the engine lid. If it looks like a Xmas tree with sparks flashing around between the wires, it all needs replacing as water entering from the spoiler will weaken the insulation further and severely weaken the spark voltage. There is a spray that Halfords used to sell that was used to spray the HT cables in the old days that coated the cables with a quick drying silicone coating that would fix it for a few months. I used it on my old Lotus Elan to great effect and you could spray the cables to the right side of the engine as they are fed over the fan cowling directly under the spoiler.

The Classic LM is a great event, I had an eventful time there in the 44 deg midday heat a few years ago.



 
Thanks, guys. All good stuff.

I've pinged off emails to Laserline in Italy, Bridgewater Electronics (who provide parts and other support in the UK for old Laserline units), and the original installer in Kingston-upon-Thames for some guidance on whether there is a known problem with my particular (model number: 996) alarm unit (or siren) and to help me understand where it has all been mounted. I think the installer found both a redundant aftermarket alarm and the original Porsche electrics all in place. I'm fairly certain they removed the other aftermarket system and did a neat job of wiring up the 'new' alarm so the original Porsche system LED's still operate. I'm not sure the original Porsche system has the same security features as the aftermarket systems, so check with your insurance company before reverting to it.

I don't have the facilities (other than the jack!) to raise the car to inspect around the tinware and certainly not to mess with the engine mounts. It would be irritating to find something amiss as I've reported problems with running in the rain to two well-known independents and would have expected them to have checked this out (and I did fork out for some missing tinware a few years back). I have another service coming up, so maybe it's time to turn to someone new for a fresh look. I work out at Reading and Ray Northway isn't far away. I'm aware Ray has, over the years, often contributed answers to technical issues for '911 and Porsche World' and I've never heard anything but positive views.

Black Circles was one of the first tyre outlets I contacted in my search for a Bridgestone SO2 front tyre, but they only have the SO2A. At least they were clear about that. I did find an online outlet in Cleckheaton, West Yorkshire that is advertising SO2's (including a photo of the very distinctve tread pattern), but sure enough when the tyres arrived they were SO2A's. I had to wait 3 weeks for them to be collected and I only got my money back after they'd been returned. I pointed out his advertising is misleading, but he hasn't changed it, so presumably it's his intention to mislead. I'll happily share the name if anyone wants to PM me.

I've been busy on my bucket list of late, I did the North Coast 500 the weekend before coming to France, though not in the Porsche (I had to make do with a gutless Seat Leon hire car instead). We only had 3 days to get round, but it was a great trip. I've no doubt I'll do it again ... next time in something more sporty, I think :)

Paul

 
Keeping busy then Paul...

My alarm siren is in the rear r/h corner on top of the engine mount - my black box is cable tied in there. The control unit is located in the the driver's footwell up to the right above my carpet line. The Porsche factory unit is still there in the usual place of underneath the l/h side of the bulkhead. It had crossed my mind that all I need to do is plug back in the interface connector on the factory original then disconnect the feed to the afetrmarket unit and try that. The original system was/is imobiliser and alarm (car horn) armed when locking the door. For me that is all I want to get back to. The car is garaged securely and if I were to park up elsewhere for any length of time I would probably remove the DME relay and disconnect/remove the LT leads.

Prior to the mental drive on NC500 I created my own rear wheel arch half-liners (l/h side alreday being half lined, r/h side only needing half liner). This has helped preventing water and gravel/grit spray up into the rear body. Two months later it's still as good as the day it was fitted - even while close to the exhaust.

Interesting re S02's. I guess at some point each manfucaturer has to cut over to newer formulas and improved tread patterns (that just about cover all driving scenarios and condtions). Maybe time to switch to a differnt brand. In the US I find that many 964 owners rave about Federal FZ-201's. Not tried them myself. Mine has run on Conti SC 3's for as long as I can remember (track days and all).. When I need to change them I'll think about Michellin's, Toyo's and Bridgestone I guess...

Good luck..
 
The 964 alarm is not Thatcham approved because it only disconnects the feed to the ignition whereas all Thatcham alarms have to disconnect another circuit as well.
 
I would certainly refer to Bridgewater Electronics for alarm help where appropriate-my wife's 924S had a Foxguard alarm fitted for us in 1993 & recently failed to operate 1st with 1 Fob then with the reserve although still this didn't disable the car at all.

Contacted them,after several technical & helpful discussions ,asked me to send the alarm unit plus both fobs back to them which were returned 2 days later ,alarm plugged back in ,new cases were fitted to the fobs(by them) & all now works superbly.
I just had to jump 2 connections to the starter circuit during it's absence.

No connection to them at all but very impressed by their service & Graham to whom I spoke.The same with Hamilton & Palmer when we had our 964 C2 (fondly remembered)
 
Thanks all for your further comments.

I'd noticed the rear wheel arches seem to lack some lining, but I'd assumed that's how they left the factory by design and I would be reluctant to add something in case it had knock-on effects elsewhere. What did you use to add to the lining mcgc01 and how did you secure it in place?

I've known the SO2's were quite an old design, but I've found them very good and quite long-lasting. I'm not against switching to a more modern / better tyre, but the issue is one of cost since, although I have only a single front tyre that is low on grip, the switch away from SO2s would mean buying 4 new tyres. My car is generally a fair weather toy, so I've liked what I've read about the Yokohama Advan AD08s. They're quite expensive, however.

I'm waiting to hear back on my various queries about the alarm. I'll update my posting on here in due course.
 
Good luck on the alarm fron Paul. Vitesse is a mind full of information! ;)

Correct, the standard 964 had full front arch liners only. The turbo (bodied) had rear liners as well. The standard 964 rear liner is the l/h one that covers the carbon cannister and other pipework. There are no detrimental knock on effects other than looks or ease of access for some. For rallying, equivalent or same shield protection is used. The rear light wells are notorious for collecting thrown up mud/dirt and are corrosion hotspots. I was needing high density polyethylene (PE) plastic that is flexible, won't crack and reasonably heat resistant. Looked around for suppliers then realised it was right under my nose - in the garden! Commercial/industrial size black planting pots or tubs. Large diameter meant I had a good degree of curve or shape that would fit. After some template making and cutting/trimming it was an easy fit picking up on existing 6mm set screws for the half liner then the self tappers for the bumber side support brackets. You can even shape to have a rally stylie look if you want (but then I like that 'hard working' Tuthill 911 look!).

I've heard good things about the Advan's too. No need to buy 4 tyres of exactly the same - just two of the same on the same 'axle'. In fact there are many who do prefer different fronts to the rear and I see a lot of this with other 968CS/S owners (I have Toyo's up front and SA02's rear gving me the best turn in feel than anything else I have ever driven - so far). Can dicate more what level of front grip you want for track days or events... Tyres, like engine oil(!), is always a subjective viewpoint and down the individual preferences.

Personally, I think any good car targetting thief gets around the thatcham alarms pretty easily - occurs hundreds of time every day. Deterrent for the opportunist maybe, but not for the keen or experienced. Lambo's et al are simply towed or lorry-loaded and the tracker disabled/blocked. Not talking from experience of course, before Colin comes back!

Have a good weekend guys. Have already been out today pushing the 964 a bit around the Bucks country roads. Weather good all weekend so hope all give their classics the same.

Marcus
 
OK, I spoke to Bridgewater Electronics earlier about the problems with starting when the car is running hot.

Their first thought, based on my description of the intermittent starting problem, was that it was more likely to be an issue with the starter solenoid and/or the relay than with the Laserline 996 alarm unit. I explained that I was sure both had been changed or checked in recent years, yet the problem has continued.

In their 15 years of experience with the alarm unit, they are not aware of another case where the problem I described has occured due to a fault with the alarm unit. They also discounted any likelihood that the electrics within the siren unit were having any impact on the functioning of the starter. Of course, they pointed out they can't vouch for the various connections made in the installation - a poor connection could lead to an intermittent problem, which is what I am experiencing.

Their suggestion was to trace, disconnect and bridge the connections between the alarm unit and the wiring from the ignition switch to the starter motor. This wouldn't be easy, as all the wires exiting the Laseline 996 unit are black (but it should be possible to work this out with the assistance of a wiring diagram - will need to check if this is in Adrian Streather's book when I get home). Alternatively, this can be achieved by opening up the alarm unit and telephoning Bridgewater Electronics who can then explain how to change the internal wiring to achieve the same aim. If the starting problem goes away, I would have confirmation that it was the alarm unit, or how it has been wired into the car's electrics.

If the installer comes back to me, I might be able to get them to double-check the wiring and/or assist with disconnecting the connection with the starter circuit. Obviously, I'd have to get the OK from the car insurer, in case the alarm ceases to be 'Thatcham 1 approved' at this point (I believe a Thatcham 1 alarm must interrupt two circuits to render the vehicle immobile).

The patient approach would be to rectify just one of the above at a time, in order to definitively identify the cause of the problem (fingers crossed!). I think I'll explore the potential costs for me of both routes (as I wouldn't want to tackle either job by myself) and go with the cheapest fix first.
 
Paul, sounds like some progress-you would be looking for the larger 4 amp capacity cable in the starter circuit-happily the Foxguard came with a booklet including the circuit diagram so was easy to jump the 2 terminals in it's plastic block connector which I could verify nearer the igniton switch loom section as the installer had used Scotchloks (not recommended at all) to patch into the wiring & the 2 starter cables (red & largest)

Marcos-you are too kind but then a gentleman as ever-I use winter tyres on the trackcar fronts to give better turn in.

Best regards

Colin.
 
Interesting choice of fronts Colin - winter tyres. Softer compound then? What make?

* Apologies Paul, hijacked your thread a bit there!
 
Yes sorry,Paul-however to answer Marcos
Fronts Continental Winter Contact with 2.5 deg neg camber
Rears Dunlop SP Sport fast Response

All part worn from my regular tyre supplier who carefully checks them all
 

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