I've tried searching for this information, to no avail. I currently have Michelin Pilot Sport N2 tyres on the Boxster. The backs are 3mm, and the fronts are 6mm plus. Porsche say change all four as the N2s are no longer available, but Michelin say it's fine to run with the N2s on the front, and new N3s on the back. Does anyone have this mix on their car? I've put Toyo Proxes T1-Rs on my last 3 daily use cars and thought they were great, but they don't come 'N' rated......tssk..... Anyone recommend Continentals?
tyres - N2/N3
- Thread starter Steven944
- Start date
Not yet but I will have by time I get car back from garage - have just ordered a pair of N3s for rears of my 993.
We had a talk by Michelin at one of our regional meets and the guy said the same - not all N number changes are incompatible. He gave out a technical support phone number for anyone wanting to ask questions, but I've lost it so have not phoned them! Did you call them?
Anyway, decided it was a complete waste not to use half the tread on my fronts and it's not as if I'm driving the car near the edge of its handling capability!
akwaugh
New member
Hi,
I believe other threads say run the same N number all round. the N spec relates to a tyre development stage as far as I know so if you mix them up you have different developments albeit of the same tyre. I don't know how that would go with insurance - may be nitpicking but you know how it goes, any excuse not to pay out.
I would add that I recently fitted a set of 911 Turbo wheels and Pirelli (N) tyres to my boxster, truly amazing levels of grip from the rears, as a matter of interest, but a bit understeery. Still, it's only for a month or so before it gets put into hibernation. Pirellis, if you can find cheap ones, are excellent, though I have used Bridgestone (SO2?) in the past.
Hope this helps
Andy
I believe other threads say run the same N number all round. the N spec relates to a tyre development stage as far as I know so if you mix them up you have different developments albeit of the same tyre. I don't know how that would go with insurance - may be nitpicking but you know how it goes, any excuse not to pay out.
I would add that I recently fitted a set of 911 Turbo wheels and Pirelli (N) tyres to my boxster, truly amazing levels of grip from the rears, as a matter of interest, but a bit understeery. Still, it's only for a month or so before it gets put into hibernation. Pirellis, if you can find cheap ones, are excellent, though I have used Bridgestone (SO2?) in the past.
Hope this helps
Andy
The reccomendation is always to run the same all round. It's up to you if you want to abide by that (see Akwaugh's reply above..).
Very few here recommend Continentals - that is unless the car came on them and they haven't tried anything else (so it seems)!
I can't believe Continental would still be producing the same type of tyre I found unbearable a couple of years ago though - maybe they are better now? I've got Michelin N2's on mine at the moment - it looks like my rears will need to go N3 soon so I'm in the same dilema as you.
Info from 'Treadlines' a newsletter produced by Porsche and the Tyre suppliers:
Sports cars are often described as vehicles that "stick to the road." Sports car tires make a major contribution to this phenomenon. These tires are very complex products meeting numerous, largely contradictory demands. Finding the proper structure that balances these demands for any given application is the great challenge in tire design.Porsche designs and manufacturers some of the highest performance vehicles in the world. Because of the integral role that tires play in vehicle performance, Porsche has integrated tire development throughout their process of vehicle development.
To be an Original Equipment tire provider on a Porsche vehicle or be approved by Porsche for the replacement market requires the joint product development efforts of the tire engineers working alongside the Porsche vehicle engineers. The focus in recent radial tire development for Porsche vehicles has primarily included optimum handling on dry surfaces and the safest possible behavior on wet surfaces, even at high speeds. Tires developed by various manufacturers, in concert with Porsche, offer a specific set of wet grip properties which few, if any, other automobile manufacturers demand in equal measure from the tires they use on their vehicles.
Tires may be specified for a particular vehicle or range of vehicles and must successfully pass the tire company's laboratory tests to assure that they would be capable of adequately supporting the Porsche vehicle while allowing it to reach its top speed on the German Autobahn. Additional laboratory, test track and race track tests are conducted to confirm that the prototype tires meet Porsche's noise, hydroplaning and handling requirements. Prototype tires will also be evaluated to assess their high-speed durability, uniformity and serviceability. Upon test completion, the tires will be released for production.
Production tires that have passed all of the tests and received the engineering department's release can be branded with an N-specification. The N-specification brandings include: N-0 (N-zero), N-1, N-2, N-3 or N-4. These markings on a tire's sidewall clearly identify them as approved by Porsche for their vehicles. The N-0 marking is assigned to the first approved version of a tire design. As that design is refined externally or internally, the later significant evolutions will result in a new generation of the tire to be branded with N-1, N-2, N-3, etc., in succession. When a completely new tire design is approved, it receives the N-0 branding and the succession begins again.
It is recommended that only matching tires be used on Porsche vehicles. Since many Porsche vehicles are fitted with differently sized tires on their front and rear axles, this means matching the tire make, tire type and N-specification. If a vehicle was originally delivered with N-specification tires that have been discontinued and are no longer available, it is recommended to change all four tires to a higher numeric N-specification design appropriate for that vehicle. Mixed tire types are not permissible.
It is also important to know that while Porsche N-specification tires have been fine tuned to meet the specific performance needs of Porsche vehicles, the tire manufacturers may also build other tires featuring the same name, size and speed rating as the N-specification tires for non-Porsche applications. These tires may not be branded with the Porsche N-specification because they do not share the same internal construction and/or tread compound ingredients as the N-specification tires. Using tires that are not N-specific is not recommended and mixing them with other N-specification tires is not permissible.
Tires should be replaced no less than in pairs on one axle at a time. Only tires of the same tire make and type must be used. However, in case of tire damage such as cuts, punctures, cracks or sidewall bulges that cause a single tire to be replaced for safety reasons, the remaining matching tire on that axle must not exceed 30 percent wear. If the remaining tire has more than 30 percent wear from new, it should also be replaced. Handling inconsistencies may result if this is not done.
Initially, new tires do not offer their full traction. Drivers should therefore drive at moderate speeds during the first 60-100 miles (100-200 km). If new tires are installed on only one axle, a noticeable change in handling occurs due to the different tread depth of the other tires. This happens especially if only rear tires are replaced. However, this condition disappears as new tires are broken in. Drivers should adjust their driving style accordingly.
Sports cars are often described as vehicles that "stick to the road." Sports car tires make a major contribution to this phenomenon. These tires are very complex products meeting numerous, largely contradictory demands. Finding the proper structure that balances these demands for any given application is the great challenge in tire design.Porsche designs and manufacturers some of the highest performance vehicles in the world. Because of the integral role that tires play in vehicle performance, Porsche has integrated tire development throughout their process of vehicle development.
To be an Original Equipment tire provider on a Porsche vehicle or be approved by Porsche for the replacement market requires the joint product development efforts of the tire engineers working alongside the Porsche vehicle engineers. The focus in recent radial tire development for Porsche vehicles has primarily included optimum handling on dry surfaces and the safest possible behavior on wet surfaces, even at high speeds. Tires developed by various manufacturers, in concert with Porsche, offer a specific set of wet grip properties which few, if any, other automobile manufacturers demand in equal measure from the tires they use on their vehicles.
Tires may be specified for a particular vehicle or range of vehicles and must successfully pass the tire company's laboratory tests to assure that they would be capable of adequately supporting the Porsche vehicle while allowing it to reach its top speed on the German Autobahn. Additional laboratory, test track and race track tests are conducted to confirm that the prototype tires meet Porsche's noise, hydroplaning and handling requirements. Prototype tires will also be evaluated to assess their high-speed durability, uniformity and serviceability. Upon test completion, the tires will be released for production.
Production tires that have passed all of the tests and received the engineering department's release can be branded with an N-specification. The N-specification brandings include: N-0 (N-zero), N-1, N-2, N-3 or N-4. These markings on a tire's sidewall clearly identify them as approved by Porsche for their vehicles. The N-0 marking is assigned to the first approved version of a tire design. As that design is refined externally or internally, the later significant evolutions will result in a new generation of the tire to be branded with N-1, N-2, N-3, etc., in succession. When a completely new tire design is approved, it receives the N-0 branding and the succession begins again.
It is recommended that only matching tires be used on Porsche vehicles. Since many Porsche vehicles are fitted with differently sized tires on their front and rear axles, this means matching the tire make, tire type and N-specification. If a vehicle was originally delivered with N-specification tires that have been discontinued and are no longer available, it is recommended to change all four tires to a higher numeric N-specification design appropriate for that vehicle. Mixed tire types are not permissible.
It is also important to know that while Porsche N-specification tires have been fine tuned to meet the specific performance needs of Porsche vehicles, the tire manufacturers may also build other tires featuring the same name, size and speed rating as the N-specification tires for non-Porsche applications. These tires may not be branded with the Porsche N-specification because they do not share the same internal construction and/or tread compound ingredients as the N-specification tires. Using tires that are not N-specific is not recommended and mixing them with other N-specification tires is not permissible.
Tires should be replaced no less than in pairs on one axle at a time. Only tires of the same tire make and type must be used. However, in case of tire damage such as cuts, punctures, cracks or sidewall bulges that cause a single tire to be replaced for safety reasons, the remaining matching tire on that axle must not exceed 30 percent wear. If the remaining tire has more than 30 percent wear from new, it should also be replaced. Handling inconsistencies may result if this is not done.
Initially, new tires do not offer their full traction. Drivers should therefore drive at moderate speeds during the first 60-100 miles (100-200 km). If new tires are installed on only one axle, a noticeable change in handling occurs due to the different tread depth of the other tires. This happens especially if only rear tires are replaced. However, this condition disappears as new tires are broken in. Drivers should adjust their driving style accordingly.
All this is good advice to keep life simple, but what Michelin add when you talk to them is that whenever they make the slightest change to a tyre they have to get it re-approved by Porsche, which gives it a new N number. This applies even if the tyres' performance characteristics have not changed. Therefore (if you call their technical chaps and ask) they can tell you if moving from, say N2 to N3, on a Pilot Sport 2 actually matters or not (ie if the change they made did not have a performance characteristic change then it makes no difference).
(Just to be clear: I have NOT asked, because I've lost their number[8|] and it's not made public on the web site - if someone has it please let me know and I'll call them)
(Just to be clear: I have NOT asked, because I've lost their number[8|] and it's not made public on the web site - if someone has it please let me know and I'll call them)
And when they do a major redesign, it goes back to N0 again. [
]
So minor changes go N0-N1-N2 etc, then a major redesign will take it to N0, and we start all over again. Of course there should be no possibility of mixing "early N0" with "later N0" as there would be a few years between manufacture.
This is the same for all Porsche approved tyres regardless of make.
]So minor changes go N0-N1-N2 etc, then a major redesign will take it to N0, and we start all over again. Of course there should be no possibility of mixing "early N0" with "later N0" as there would be a few years between manufacture.
This is the same for all Porsche approved tyres regardless of make.
I've not actually called Michelin myself, but three of the tyre suppliers that I asked got back to me after 'checking with Michelin'. Two of them said it was ok to have N2 on the front, and N3 on the back. The other told me that I couldn't do it as the older tyres were directional, and the newer ones are asymmetric. I've got P Zeros on the 911, and have no problem with them so if push comes to shove and I have replace 4 I'll probably go with them as replacements.
Black80XSA
New member
Have to say i share Mark's view - if N2 were good enough last year then why not this. Whilst N3 are supposedly better they are unlikely to be so much better that they cause an imbalance. For goodness sake Porsche will let you run round on a bike tyre (986/996 emergency spare) or with a tyre filled with goo (987/997) for short periods at lower speeds.
Update: I phoned Michelin UK this morning, and they definitely have no issues with having N2 on the front and N3 on the rear. Porsche may be 'very particular'(Michelin) about it, but I feel as my car is out of warranty and I'm also likely to put new tyres on the front also once I feel I've had some value out of the current ones, I'll take the gamble.........
after much hunting on the internet and phoning round, I have made a purchase ! Kwik fit are doing Michelin on a special deal so it's currently £153 for 255/40 Y17 N3s - total £326 for two including fitting and the associated stuff. A couple of the other places I phoned said that they couldn't even get close on price as Kwik Fit seem to be 'giving them away' at the moment. Saturday morning is the fitment time. Now I just have to stand over the top of the fitter to make sure proper jacking points are used and no alloys are damaged.....how come all this stuff is so nerve racking??!
On the upside, the 911 and 944 both passed their MOTs this afternoon with many compliments from the inspector, so the world ain't all bad at the mo!
after much hunting on the internet and phoning round, I have made a purchase ! Kwik fit are doing Michelin on a special deal so it's currently £153 for 255/40 Y17 N3s - total £326 for two including fitting and the associated stuff. A couple of the other places I phoned said that they couldn't even get close on price as Kwik Fit seem to be 'giving them away' at the moment. Saturday morning is the fitment time. Now I just have to stand over the top of the fitter to make sure proper jacking points are used and no alloys are damaged.....how come all this stuff is so nerve racking??!
On the upside, the 911 and 944 both passed their MOTs this afternoon with many compliments from the inspector, so the world ain't all bad at the mo!
John H
New member
For what it's worth Stephen, I have Conti's on my Cayman and think they are fab, so much so that I'm on my third set. I also put Conti's on my Audi A2 and think they are great. Each to their own though!
[]
PS There is a tyre place in Kirkcaldy that I often use (opposite "Rejects" on St Clair St) run by two guys who are very careful with my alloys, worth knowing about. One of very few places I trust enough to let them loose on the Porsche.
[
]PS There is a tyre place in Kirkcaldy that I often use (opposite "Rejects" on St Clair St) run by two guys who are very careful with my alloys, worth knowing about. One of very few places I trust enough to let them loose on the Porsche.
My indy is doing mine (same size) for £170 each - which I guess is £17 per tyre extra for not having to watch the Kiwk-fit man's every move[8|][
]ORIGINAL: John H
For what it's worth Stephen, I have Conti's on my Cayman and think they are fab, so much so that I'm on my third set. I also put Conti's on my Audi A2 and think they are great. Each to their own though!
[
I had asked about the Contis because all new Audis were coming with Sport Contact 2s on them for a good while - I figured Audi would be doing the same 'N' type of thing when testing, and so they'd be pretty good. Having satisfied myself that new N3s on the back wont' fling me off the road, I'll hopefully go for a complete set of 4 next time. I was just distressed at the thought of buying 4 new tyres when I actually only needed 2!
JCB..
Non-member
ORIGINAL: Steven Ferguson
ORIGINAL: John H
For what it's worth Stephen, I have Conti's on my Cayman and think they are fab, so much so that I'm on my third set. I also put Conti's on my Audi A2 and think they are great. Each to their own though!
[
I had asked about the Contis because all new Audis were coming with Sport Contact 2s on them for a good while - I figured Audi would be doing the same 'N' type of thing when testing, and so they'd be pretty good. Having satisfied myself that new N3s on the back wont' fling me off the road, I'll hopefully go for a complete set of 4 next time. I was just distressed at the thought of buying 4 new tyres when I actually only needed 2!
I've done about 80,000 miles, including several trackdays, IOM and European jaunts all on Conti's and never had a problem.
There is nothing wrong with mixing tyres with different N ratings as long as it isn't on the same axle. For that matter there is nothing wrong with having different tyres, again, as long as it isn't on the same axle. I replaced my rear OEM fitted Pilots with Conti's without issue and ran them for 15k miles until replacing all 4 with Conti's. This was on the advice of the owner of a respected tyre and geometry specialist.
I think the claim that the Contact Sport is a poor tyre is nonsense - rather like the poor workman blaming the tools! [
]Kwik fit did the business this afternoon. All credit to them, extreme care was taken - after I had warned them about how utterly anal I was about my car, and giving them my own jack pad, and 'asking' to stand and watch..... The new hoops seem super, much quieter, amazing roadholding and probably an extra 3mpg to boot. Or maybe that's just me convincing my wallet that it was the right thing to do? After all, I've now driven nearly 3 miles at up to 45mph. Mark, I hope your 'fitting' goes well.
Steve Brookes
Moderator
Well...I have had MPS N2s on the front and N3s on the back now for 3 months. Exactly for the reasons mentiond in this thread (N2 no longer available). I've had absolutely no issues at all with this set up in the dry or the wet.
FWIW I ran with Conti Sport contact 2 N2s for the previous 3 years and the only reason I changed to the Michelins is that they came with a set of wheels that I changed to. As said above I'm very happy with the performance of the Michelins but I don't find them any better than the contis that I used to have.
FWIW I ran with Conti Sport contact 2 N2s for the previous 3 years and the only reason I changed to the Michelins is that they came with a set of wheels that I changed to. As said above I'm very happy with the performance of the Michelins but I don't find them any better than the contis that I used to have.
Great Thread & useful tips all round,Ok I don't need any tyres just yet but I am always interested as it always an issue when the time comes on value for money and making the right choice,for many years I ran Avon turbo speeds on my 944 turbo and were great not too noisy and worked well for my driving needs & looked good too.
Will look to stay with Michelin on Boxster S as I have them and I like them as they wear well look good and while I loved Pirelli P7 yrs which the turbo came with on purchases , they tend to use the rubber as only got 10,000 to 12,000 mile's on the front of my 944 turbo instead of 17,000 on my Avons.
To date I have done 12k on the Boxster S on Michelin so far and they have a fair way to go yet- so no worries yet..Thanks to all contributer's again.Cheers.
Will look to stay with Michelin on Boxster S as I have them and I like them as they wear well look good and while I loved Pirelli P7 yrs which the turbo came with on purchases , they tend to use the rubber as only got 10,000 to 12,000 mile's on the front of my 944 turbo instead of 17,000 on my Avons.
To date I have done 12k on the Boxster S on Michelin so far and they have a fair way to go yet- so no worries yet..Thanks to all contributer's again.Cheers.
Just a follow up - picked up my 993 with the new N3s on the rear on Friday and I was a bit surprised how different the N3s look compared with the N2s on front - significantly different tread pattern and (as mentioned above) they are now by-directional. Quite difficult to believe that they don't have different handling characteristics from the N2s.
But good to see Steve's comments above.
I'll see how they go....
But good to see Steve's comments above.
I'll see how they go....
Steve Brookes
Moderator
I agree Mark. I was quite shocked to see how different the tread patterns were on the N3. The rain channels are huge compared to the N2 (strangely they are more like the conti sport contact 2s that have been mentioned in this thread) but as I said...no driving/handling issues at all in my experience.
Posts made and opinions expressed are those of the individual forum members
Use of the Forum is subject to the Terms and Conditions
