ULEZ /certificate of conformity

[crypticc]

There's no effort and no cost. The certificate is a copy of the one that would've accompanied original delivery so there's no harm getting another of you've lost or were never given yours.

I understand from cert will probably say not complaint but they're probably incorrect.

In this thread it was said Mark said he was talking with P about doing restest themselves but it's fine very quiet. Too quiet.

I believe P won't want PCGB to create another situation like Audi diesel gate but in this case with certs being too aggressive... so we need to get ammunition via softer methods. Not sure how to play that game tbh.
But if it comes to it I think we might want to club together and get an independent tester to recertify a single car to prove original cert has numbers transposed incorrectly. I.e. type II cert HC + NOx numbers entered into type III template with HC field by mistake.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[martinstillmanjones]

I am VERY keen to know more about the ULEZ and possible 993 meeting the standard…..it could save me running a Taycan!

How / where do I find out more?

 

[crypticc]

I am VERY keen to know more about the ULEZ and possible 993 meeting the standard…..it could save me running a Taycan!

How / where do I find out more?

You need to get copy of your emissions certificate, either the original from when your car was first imported or a copy which PGB could help if you have 1996 MY onwards (note model year, not date of manufacture). Porsche GB will give you a form to fill out.

I have both the certificate that somehow was kept in my initial service book plus certified copy from Porsche. They are identical except the latter is watermarked as a copy.

Still doesn't help me due to either having worse HC + CO emissions than a diesel car of the era (which I struggle to believe) or the errors with transposition of the TypeII results in to a TypeII form (that I feel is more likely and once allowed for you get results remarkably similar to a Boxter).
That still doesn't help much though because, unless something happening behind the scenes, Porsche seem not to be interested.

Regards
Chris

 

[Flaminia]

Christan
I would like help on this if possible. I have the conformity from Germany for my 993 standard tiptronic but unlike yours mine is a 1994 model.
I have had this rejected by the GLA and wanted to know if I was the only one?
Any advice you can give would be appreciated
Peter S

 

[crypticc]

Hey what figures do you get? Do you see what looks to be type II results in a type III template?
(Recognisable because ridiculous figures put into particulate field approaching that of the diesel of the era)

 

[Shepster993]

Hi there
I have a 1995 Carrera tiptronic. I was told to apply for a technical data sheet. Unfortunately the technical data sheet confirms that the emission class for mine is Euro 2 (70/220*94/12). This means it is not ulez compliant, as it has to be at least Euro 4. I was surprised as I'm sure I've read elweshweere that the 993 tiptronic (in particular) was Euro 4. The data sheet doesn't give specific emissions data relating to C0 and NOX - at least I can't see it anywhere. So this tells me that pre 1997 cars are not ULEZ compliant - anyone else have the same info?

Christan
I would like help on this if possible. I have the conformity from Germany for my 993 standard tiptronic but unlike yours mine is a 1994 model.
I have had this rejected by the GLA and wanted to know if I was the only one?
Any advice you can give would be appreciated
Peter S

 

[crypticc]

Hey

It was tested under Euro 2 rules but might be compliant with the later standards, but is not certified correctly for that

 

[crypticc]

I still believe the issue is that while tested under Euro 2, the issue is that they put those Euro 2 results into the Euro 3 template which was coming in about the same time.

The Euro 3 template has separate fields for NOx and HC but the Euro 2 test only required a combined NOx and HC result.
My belief remains that Porsche transcribed the figures incorrectly, and put a NOx + HC result of 0.178 into the NOx field by mistake and therefore kyboshing us.
The evidence is other related results, that it's otherwise missing the combined NOx + HC combined result which was actually the Euro 2 test requirement, and finally, while not the most efficient vehicle, it's not a london bus.


@Mark Hamilton - I don't know if you'll get this but did you hear from Porsche AG?


https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/assets/documents/reports/cat15/0408171318_SIPhase1reportAppendix1Issue3.pdf


Car - Euro II standard were specified in directive 94/12/EC for passenger cars.
Note that requirement is HC + NOx test, not separately
Difference introduced for the Euro III "...values of 98/69/EC is that the quantities of NOX and HC are specified separately, rather than there being a limit for their sum as was the case for earlier standards."

996
The 996 COC that I've seen with the number being challenged has 0.187 in the NOx figure.

But once corrected by Porsche that becomes the combined HC + NOx figure of 0.187. All the other details are the same, so definitely a typo.


0.152 + 0.035 = 0.187
So Porsche clearly put the numbers into the wrong cell, and once corrected the NOx is then the correct level!

Now let's look at the 993.

Note: Euro II standard were specified in directive 94/12/EC for passenger cars

Testverfahren = "test procedure" and there's no such thing as III 94/12EC

And here we see a Euro II test result (incorrectly) transcribed into Euro III form, or perhaps an early-adopter III result also transcribed incorrectly. HC + NOx again put into the NOx field.
(like was done for the early 996 certificate above)



Assuming Porsche made the same error that means the true NOx emission is 0.178 - 0.112 = 0.066 g/km.
Much closer to the 996, more reasonable and to be expected given capacity and , and compliant with ULEZ

This correctly reduced figure is to be expected for a car with a catalytic converter fitted

NOx reduction:
Nitric acid - 2NO becomes N2 + O2
Nitrogen dioxide - 2NO2 becomes N2 + 2O2

Oxidation Reactions
Carbon Monoxide - 2CO + O2 becomes 2CO2
Hydrocarbon - HC + O2 becomes CO2 + H2O

Or do Porsche Catalytic converters fitted to meet Euro II not work properly?

 

[Mark_Hamilton]

Good morning All,
Just a brief update on the ULEZ project going on with the 993 register. I am developing a plan to get the majority of manual car variants retested by an independent test house with accreditation to conduct Euro 4 testing (the level required to pass ULEZ for 993). I am currently awaiting for the test house to get certified which will hopefully be at the tail end of this year or worst case Q1 2024. The aim is to establish if our manual cars pass or not based on real car data. If they pass then we can roll this out to the whole 993 community. If not, I plan to work on a solution to make them pass through minor modifications and new cats etc for those of you that need ULEZ compliance. If you are interested in being a guinea pig for this then just drop me a line to 993@porscheclubgb.com if you have not already done so. When the test house becomes live, I will start to post further details on how to get involved and what costs will be involved etc. In the meantime, if you have a 993 and you are not a PCGB member, then please join up as it will make things a lot easier come test time. You will also be able to join our monthly 993 zoom calls to get regular updates. Mark

 

[crypticc]

+1 emailed to you thanks.

Let me know if you need anything or a contribution

Will cross post to the other UK forum to suggest others come to look here if member.

 

[kozpanny]

Hi Mark, I have emailed you today regarding my car.

 

[T_Bear]

For anyone else who’s just been affected by the new ULEZ zone, you can find details of the known locations of the ULEZ cameras at https://ulez.co.uk/ulez-camera-locations/#pp-toc__heading-anchor-0

I live in SW London and I think I’ve found a route out of London which avoids the cameras. I haven’t tested it yet and I’ll probably cycle the route to double check. It seems you can also make shorter journeys quite easily without going past a camera.

I will also sign up for automatic payment of the ULEZ charge just in case I do get caught by a camera!

 

[T911UK]

That site doesnt show any cameras? (or about 5%)

A slightly better option;

https://www.google.com/ma...7121795249072&z=18

 

[crypticc]

Now just need an app that can navigate while avoiding POI.
Oh and another tenner of petrol for every journey.
Lol

 

[ch3tman]

Good morning All,
Just a brief update on the ULEZ project going on with the 993 register. I am developing a plan to get the majority of manual car variants retested by an independent test house with accreditation to conduct Euro 4 testing (the level required to pass ULEZ for 993). I am currently awaiting for the test house to get certified which will hopefully be at the tail end of this year or worst case Q1 2024. The aim is to establish if our manual cars pass or not based on real car data. If they pass then we can roll this out to the whole 993 community. If not, I plan to work on a solution to make them pass through minor modifications and new cats etc for those of you that need ULEZ compliance. If you are interested in being a guinea pig for this then just drop me a line to 993@porscheclubgb.com if you have not already done so. When the test house becomes live, I will start to post further details on how to get involved and what costs will be involved etc. In the meantime, if you have a 993 and you are not a PCGB member, then please join up as it will make things a lot easier come test time. You will also be able to join our monthly 993 zoom calls to get regular updates. Mark

Hi, has been any progress on this initiative? Eager to hear news!

 

[crypticc]

Hi, has been any progress on this initiative? Eager to hear news!

Hello

This was discussed on the monthly dial in.

While it's not my place to share too much on the public side, I note this has not been replied to and I think it's fair to say that this isn't forgotten.

There was lots of interesting detail covered but the key thing I took away was that the people and organisations that would need to invest time and money to get the licensing needed to obtain the certifications won't want to do that, only for a potential change in the political landscape to alter the business case... ;-)

If we enjoy our cars and can hang on, then ULEZ alone shouldn't be a reason to be quitting our cars just yet. (It's not like they're daily drivers, are they?)

Regards
Chris

 

[ch3tman]

Hi @crypticc,

While it's not my place to share too much on the public side, I note this has not been replied to and I think it's fair to say that this isn't forgotten.

Thanks for taking the time out to respond with a summary of the monthly call... even if not the most promising update!

Am still hopeful of some movement in the near future via, ultimately, the independent test house approach as alluded to by @Mark_Hamilton in August 2023.

If we enjoy our cars and can hang on, then ULEZ alone shouldn't be a reason to be quitting our cars just yet. (It's not like they're daily drivers, are they?)

There is a minority of us who do daily our 993s - have done so for almost 10 years.
Though admittedly, a combination of ULEZ+COVID+WFH has really limited the need to do so nowadays . "Quitting our cars" does not even register on the radar .

 

[crypticc]

In case unclear I meant that the need for action on ULEZ isn't forgotten.

 

[ch3tman]

A very pleasant update posted on another forum today, positive reading for 1997 model year cars:

Read more here:

https://911uk.com/threads/hello-993-nox-figures-yes-its-ulez-time.111566/post-2690187

 

[bbpxbbpx]

The political landscape hasn't changed in the end

Hopefully some momentum will come back to this.