Ultimate Engine Config??

[George Elliott]

I notice the Land speed car being prepared by JCB has the following engine configuration:
4 Cylinders
4.4Litres
Turbo'd
The engine has been developed for applications where loads of Torque & Power can be reliably produced with optimum efficiency.
It all sounds quite familiar (even if it runs on diesel)
Perhaps a 4cyl is the ultimate config' for; compactness, light weight, durable, economical, engines, be it Inline or Flat layout.

George

944T
964

 

[Robert Edwards]

I'm beginning to think so - therre are some guys in Sweden who are developing the Merc Cosworth engine to unheard-of outputs, with 12K rev limits. Unblown, they are looking at 400 bhp!

Which makes me wonder what, say, the 2.5 Porsche valver might be capable of. Has anyone tried to run one without the counterbalance gear?

 

[Fen]

Horses for courses. Large capacity fours are not small or light as they need to be big and strong to cope with the sheer mass of piston reciprocating. You're also not going to have a very high output NA 4 that is nice to drive on the road. And 4 cylinders sound rubbish.

 

[Robert Edwards]

ORIGINAL: Fen

You're also not going to have a very high output NA 4 that is nice to drive on the road. And 4 cylinders sound rubbish.

Oh, I dunno; ever tried a 3 litre Bentley? []

 

[Fen]

The output being? I don't know what it produces, but I bet it isn't "very high" therefore I stand by my original statement.

Or did you mean the sound? Again I stand by my statement - listen to any 4 cylinder compared with a 5 or a 6 and tell me it sounds even nearly as good.

 

[DivineE]

Groan! Please don't mention 5 cylinder engines in here.. it will be a very quiet forum if people start listening to the old audi quattro / S2 engines with sports exhausts! I was so so temped. Just a pity the car is not as good as a 944. Wish the 944 had been a stright 5 turbo. That would have been the best car in the world EVER. (IMHO)[]

 

[Fen]

I'd seriously consider changing the RS6 for a mint RS2 which has the 2.3 5 cylinder in it of course.

I don't like the sound of the V8 at full cry nearly as much as a 5 or 6 cylinder.

 

[Hilux]

RST V8

Revvy but light

 

[RC18B 911 turbo]

My Volvo T5 sounded pretty good esspecially with the 850R exhaust on it, I do miss the sound it makes I must to say.

 

[Neil Haughey]

ISTR the ideal displacement per cylinder is 500cc hence why we 4 cylinders = 2 litre and 6 cylinders = 3 litre. I would think an engine with such big cylinders will require a long time for the flame to propagate across the cylinder and hence would not be very suitable to high rpm.

I like the idea of the flat 4, and what happened to V4?

As far as I can see it the only reason we have so many I4 engines is packaging in fwd cars. Makes no real sense in the 944 where a V6 with a sound like the old Alfa gtv6 could have resulted in the 944 being an all time great.

Far to easy to discount how important sound is in a sports car. For me it is atleast 70% of the attraction of a car like torsion bar 911's.

 

[George Elliott]

Sound was not a consideration. It has to be secondary to the engine design targets.

Agree the Audi 5 (NA) is a torquey historic, but the 5(T) is a laggy old thing thats lost its voice. The final Group B car was the finest rally car made, it was a genuine Car not a space frame and it was a lot safer than a mid-engine football. Listen to the incar sound though and its a hum. (nice hum mind you)

Interesting the Cosworth 190 has such potential. I suppose it dates from the era of Merc over engineering and Cosworth must have made a grade A head for it?

There are so many good 4 cylinders:
MB2.3 190
P944T
Toyota twincam
VAG 1781cc GLader & Tbo
Honda V Tec
Mitsi 2.0 Evo's
Lancia 2.0T
VAG 1.9 tdi (all)
Clio RenSport 2.0

all compact, practical, light, quick.
The 4 cyl has not been developed extensively as the marketing people dont want them, but they dont care how the cars drive.
George

944T
964rs

 

[Robert Edwards]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

Sound was not a consideration. It has to be secondary to the engine design targets.

Agree the Audi 5 (NA) is a torquey historic, but the 5(T) is a laggy old thing thats lost its voice. The final Group B car was the finest rally car made, it was a genuine Car not a space frame and it was a lot safer than a mid-engine football. Listen to the incar sound though and its a hum. (nice hum mind you)

Interesting the Cosworth 190 has such potential. I suppose it dates from the era of Merc over engineering and Cosworth must have made a grade A head for it?

There are so many good 4 cylinders:
MB2.3 190
P944T
Toyota twincam
VAG 1781cc GLader & Tbo
Honda V Tec
Mitsi 2.0 Evo's
Lancia 2.0T
VAG 1.9 tdi (all)
Clio RenSport 2.0

all compact, practical, light, quick.
The 4 cyl has not been developed extensively as the marketing people dont want them, but they dont care how the cars drive.
George

944T
964rs


Absolutely agree, GE. The Bentley engine was 4 in line, 3 litres, four valves, twin ignition (magneto) and compression @ c. 5.5:1. It delivered (tops) 90 bhp. Nowadays, with compressions @ 9:1 they regularly get to 130 bhp. Obviously a certain (ahem) amount of re-engineering has gone on, which only proves the soundness of the original design. Never forget that BMW is only just the oldest aero-engine maker on the planet, because they started doing it 18 months before Bentley, Wolseley and Hispano-Suiza. These guys knew their stuff.

Consider Borgward and Coventry-Climax, for example. The 1957 Borgward Isabella 1500 cc race engine (four valves, twin ignition, fuel injection, etc., etc.), was the first engine of its class (F2) to deliver a reliable 100 bhp per litre. CC were not far behind. The next year, in fact, as Stirling Moss proved in Argentina.

As for the noise - well, so f'ing what? I remember having a go in a tuned Hillman Imp (engine by Coventry Climax) which was absolutely terrific - a poor man's Lotus Elite. Once they start to really scream, the number of cylinders becomes irrelevant, and the quality of the exhaust engineering surely takes over.

And, as for F1 turbos, well, they went off the brake altogether - the BMW might have been delivering 1500 horsepower, but they couldn't tell, because the Heenan and Froude waterbrake only went up to 1100...

 

[Robert Edwards]

I like the idea of the flat 4, and what happened to V4?


I think Lancia took that one as far as it could go...

 

[Robert Edwards]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

Sound was not a consideration. It has to be secondary to the engine design targets.

Agree the Audi 5 (NA) is a torquey historic, but the 5(T) is a laggy old thing thats lost its voice. The final Group B car was the finest rally car made, it was a genuine Car not a space frame and it was a lot safer than a mid-engine football. Listen to the incar sound though and its a hum. (nice hum mind you)

Interesting the Cosworth 190 has such potential. I suppose it dates from the era of Merc over engineering and Cosworth must have made a grade A head for it?

There are so many good 4 cylinders:
MB2.3 190
P944T
Toyota twincam
VAG 1781cc GLader & Tbo
Honda V Tec
Mitsi 2.0 Evo's
Lancia 2.0T
VAG 1.9 tdi (all)
Clio RenSport 2.0

all compact, practical, light, quick.
The 4 cyl has not been developed extensively as the marketing people dont want them, but they dont care how the cars drive.
George

944T
964rs

We should not forget, flawed though it was, the Offenhauser...

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: Robert Edwards

As for the noise - well, so f'ing what? I remember having a go in a tuned Hillman Imp (engine by Coventry Climax) which was absolutely terrific - a poor man's Lotus Elite. Once they start to really scream, the number of cylinders becomes irrelevant, and the quality of the exhaust engineering surely takes over.

Robert, you just lost most of your credibility in that one sentence. I suspect you might be in a minority of one if you genuinely think the sound is unimportant and your exhaust comment shows you have the same view of sound as the average Impreza driving ape-man; the Subaru 2.0 flat four is one of the worst sounding engines I have ever had the misfortune to hear, but idiots think it sounds good by masking the tractor like engine noise with a loud exhaust - ironically one that sounds like most other fours would if you disconnected one of the plug leads.

 

[Robert Edwards]

And I suppose, while we are at it, we might consider the BRM 250, the Vanwall and the Ferrari 500, not to mention the BMW M3 2.3. and the golf 16 valve (or even 8). And, no. I do not believe in drainpipe exhausts...

 

[George Elliott]

Fen, If JCB get the record with a digger engine, the credibility will be theirs. I'm actually very impressed with Roberts awareness of interesting/notable 4 cyl engines. I would rate his credability highly like you own - if either of you asked me to.
None of us are Subaru fanatics, I agree they are unpleasant although the 1600 pickup which I had in 1984 was a very neat handling device with its Flat 4 and low centre of gravity. The first ever Porsche was also a flat 4....
There have been many good 4 cylinder engines in cars which were reliable, quick for their day, and fun to drive.

My own personal dislike among engines is some of the over hyped sports car engines which are excessively heavy.

Great sound though some of them make, good power outputs too, but if they add excessive weight to a car it destroys: Feel, Cornering ability, Responsiveness, Efficiency/Economy, Cost effectiveness, then requires bigger brakes, - that adds unsprung weight, increases tyre wear, needs bigger tyres, adds more weight etc. - One point I admired at Lotus was an awareness of adding lightness, Porsche knew it too and still are among the best in class.

The guy with no credibility (he's definitely not called Robert IMO) drives a car with a big lump of an engine, probably made of Cast Iron, - which puts out greater power than a 20 year old 944 turbo, but carries 200kg+ more weight, which requires 20% more fuel, 20% more braking capacity and needs traction/stability/launch & every other control to follow a 944 on a regular drive in the country when its raining. - The scoobydoo will pester him too, but no - I do not like them. I will admit to having tried to like them[8|].

George

944T

 

[RC18B 911 turbo]

The guy with no credibility (he's definitely not called Robert IMO) drives a car with a big lump of an engine, probably made of Cast Iron, - which puts out greater power than a 20 year old 944 turbo, but carries 200kg+ more weight, which requires 20% more fuel, 20% more braking capacity and needs traction/stability/launch & every other control to follow a 944 on a regular drive in the country when its raining. - The scoobydoo will pester him too, but no - I do not like them. I will admit to having tried to like them.

That'll be someone with a great big V8 estate car then LOL which is big, heavy, uses most of the oil reserves in Europe to run and is more powerful than a 944 turbo (I still wouldn't say no to one though)

 

[Robert Edwards]

Whoops, I forgot the Alfa Romeo series as well as the Fiat 124! Silly me...

 

[Robert Edwards]

And the Lotus-Ford 1600 crossflow....