Hello - first post. I bought a 1986 944 Lux 2.5 just over a week ago and I must say I love it (kind of a spur of the moment thing). Not the quickest thing on earth but I absolutely love the retro styling, the feeling of newness (is that a word?) still when I drive it as it feels nice and tight. The bodywork is absolutely stunning and I almost feel bad taking it out but its not a daily driver. Anyway to get to the point, the one weakness Ive found are the brakes. They work fine but dont fill me with a great deal of confidence when comparing to my other cars. Discs and pads are almost new and the calipers arent sticking. Although its had fluid changes in the past (from the history) there is no harm in me doing this again incase its taken on alot of moisture. However I was thinking of potentially looking to upgrade to the turbo 4 pots. Now from what I can gather - this will require the hubs as well on the front (rears im not so sure on) however am I correct in assuming I will have to do away with my wheels being that they will be the early offset? This would be a real shame as it has absolutely perfect BBS Mahle wheels which I love the look of. Any help would be very much appreciated.
Upgrading Brakes
- Thread starter Stoo.C
- Start date
944 man
Active member
1986 model year Turbo parts will be the simplest upgrade. Later Turbo/S2 parts will require new suspension arms and hubs and trailing arms at the rear (in order that the wheel offsets match - dispensable otherwise).
The brakes shouldnytbe poor though, quite the opposite. My 2.7 has the worst brakes Ive ever come across on a 944 and Ive still not got to the bottom of it. I suspect that it will be the pads, but whatever the cause; theyre greatly inferior to any other ATE calipered car Ive owned.
The brakes shouldnytbe poor though, quite the opposite. My 2.7 has the worst brakes Ive ever come across on a 944 and Ive still not got to the bottom of it. I suspect that it will be the pads, but whatever the cause; theyre greatly inferior to any other ATE calipered car Ive owned.
darkvisorman
Member
Defo go for better pads and fluids and maybe braided brakes lines before spending out a lot money you should not have any problems stopping
or as a suggestion bleed the brakes and see if there is any air in there
dvm
or as a suggestion bleed the brakes and see if there is any air in there
dvm
sawood12
New member
I will actually break from the general consensus and advise not to go for 'upgraded' pads. Aftermarket fast road/race pads are not necessarily better for normal street use. In normal street use stock Porsche brake pads are perfectly fine for all but the most accomplished (or idiotic) driver. Brake pads are a balancing act between many opposing attributes e.g. acceptable wear rates, non-corrosive brake dust, cold performance, modulation and feel and many many more. If you make a pad that excels in any one of these areas it is basically at the detriment to the other attributes. Porsche has spent alot more development time and money developing a blend that is the best compromise of all these factors. Of all the car manufacturers Porsche's reputation on brakes is better than any. I've had 'performance' pads on my previous car and to be honest I regretted it.
Unless you are racing the car or going to be tracking it alot then i'd simply recommend making sure the stock stuff is as good as new, you have fresh decent fluid and that you have OEM disks and pads. You wont be disappointed with the results or find the limits of the system unless you are driving like an idiot. I upgraded my brakes as it was cheaper to buy the upgraded parts new from the states than getting what I had refurbished, but unfortunately I didn't take my own advice and went for EBC Yellow pads - and regretted it. The cold bite was disappointing, they squeal and have rubbish feel/feedback.
Unless you are racing the car or going to be tracking it alot then i'd simply recommend making sure the stock stuff is as good as new, you have fresh decent fluid and that you have OEM disks and pads. You wont be disappointed with the results or find the limits of the system unless you are driving like an idiot. I upgraded my brakes as it was cheaper to buy the upgraded parts new from the states than getting what I had refurbished, but unfortunately I didn't take my own advice and went for EBC Yellow pads - and regretted it. The cold bite was disappointing, they squeal and have rubbish feel/feedback.
pauljmcnulty
Active member
I'd also check out the whole system before going mad on changing things. Brake lines will be past their best if there's no evidence of replacing them, and new fluid is a starting point.
Also remember that the 944 isn't over-servoed like many modern cars. I get the same thing with my better half when she drives mine, always asking if the steering is meant to be that heavy. After driving a Subaru Legacy for weeks, getting in a 944 can seem like you're steering and braking a tractor. Until you get used to it. Then, the Legacy does feel frighteningly unresponsive.
It was better in the snow, though.....[&:]
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
I'll echo the comments elsewhere here, I'd definately say don't worry about changing the calipers, the standard brakes should be absolutely fine even under hard track use (with a few changes which I'll come to later) and in my opinion the standard calipers offer much better feel than the larger ones (I've done it on my car so can speak from experience).
I'd get an indie to look the car over and give it a test drive (I can highly recommend one in Herts) just to check there's nothing major wrong. Otherwise some fresh fluid (I rate Castrol Response for daily use, SRF for more heavy track use), bled properly and some new standard pads and genuine discs if required should make them work very well.
If you like a lot of initial bite to your brakes (like me) then go for something like the Porterfield R4-S pads, they're really great on road and track but will wear discs more heavily and are dusty/noisy. If you buy them from the States they can be relatively cheap compared to a lot of the competition.
Braided brake hoses can firm the pedal up a touch more, but are relatively subtle and I doubt will transform them in the way that you need, so I'd wait till you need to change your existing ones.
I'd get an indie to look the car over and give it a test drive (I can highly recommend one in Herts) just to check there's nothing major wrong. Otherwise some fresh fluid (I rate Castrol Response for daily use, SRF for more heavy track use), bled properly and some new standard pads and genuine discs if required should make them work very well.
If you like a lot of initial bite to your brakes (like me) then go for something like the Porterfield R4-S pads, they're really great on road and track but will wear discs more heavily and are dusty/noisy. If you buy them from the States they can be relatively cheap compared to a lot of the competition.
Braided brake hoses can firm the pedal up a touch more, but are relatively subtle and I doubt will transform them in the way that you need, so I'd wait till you need to change your existing ones.
Neil Haughey
New member
Interesting one this as I have heard several ppl say they prefer the feel of the brakes on the early 944 to that of the latter ABS cars with Brembo calipers such as the S2 & turbo. Pads have a nasty habit of glazing over if the car is seldomly driven hard. I can recall this was often a problem with my S2 when it was my daily driver, every now and then it needed a few hard jabs on the peddle to get some nice bite back into the brakes. Then it was fine again for a couple of weeks.
Get them really really hot, mine squealed like a nasty thing but once I was black flagged at Donington (exhaust Poppoing under the gantry with the noise meter) I pulled into the pits and after they sat there smoking for 5 mins they never squealed again. never had a problem with feel or feedback either but they probably were not used much until the donny cooking.
I did buy mine in the UK though, is the US the same spec pad?
Tony
(mine are in big blacks as well)
Thanks for all the replies guys. Im an engineer myself and spend every minute of my spare time working with cars etc so very very rarely let anybody else work on my cars - I have very little trust. I feel Ive given the impression that my brakes are terrible - they work fine but I felt like I was expecting a bit more (maybe its just what im used to with my other cars). After reading a few posts however I think I've probably been over cautious when it comes to hitting them hard with the weather, lack of abs and the fact that its a new car to me. If it were one of my crx's (my true passion) I'd know exactly what I can or cant do. I love this little 944 however so dont want to risk damaging it especially in this weather so I will learn to 'feel' the brakes when we get some dry roads. As I say the discs and pads are all 'as new' with about 1000miles on them. I will go back through the receipts and see what pads were used. I think I will start with some braided lines which is a nice time to renew the fluid. I dont intend to use any fancy brake fluids to be honest - just the grade recommended - I assume this is sensible?
edh
New member
If it's just a road car, standard parts / fluids etc.. will be fine. I suspect it's mainly a case of getting use to the feel of the brakes, which are much more progressive than the on/off switches most modern cars have. Give them a good shove & you'll start to see how well they work [
]
I found the 944 setup great for heel & toe (but only on the track as I find I need to be stood pretty hard on the brake pedal to make it work smoothly)
]I found the 944 setup great for heel & toe (but only on the track as I find I need to be stood pretty hard on the brake pedal to make it work smoothly)
mik_ok
New member
Stoo - is it an issue with stopping power, or one of pedal-force required for stopping power?
The brakes on my S2 (4pots) were excellent IMHO, but the 944 setup isn't heavily servoed (which I see as a positive) so pedal force is quite high compared to more modern cars.
(One of my pet hates is over-servoed brakes - I drove my fathers current-model Leon FR the other week and brushing the brake pedal nearly brakes your nose).
edit: I've just realised ed's post said pretty much the same thing [&:] Sorry Ed.
The brakes on my S2 (4pots) were excellent IMHO, but the 944 setup isn't heavily servoed (which I see as a positive) so pedal force is quite high compared to more modern cars.
(One of my pet hates is over-servoed brakes - I drove my fathers current-model Leon FR the other week and brushing the brake pedal nearly brakes your nose).
edit: I've just realised ed's post said pretty much the same thing [&:] Sorry Ed.
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
I'm not sure what the cause is. Some say it's the calipers themselves flexing, others claim it's due to the larger piston area (find this harder to believe), whatever the case I haven't the foggiest but having done the back to back with identical pads know which I prefer, not that the Turbo setup is lacking, it's just a comparative thing. I suppose I'd sum it up by saying there's a much larger dead/soft area at the start of the pedal, feel and power is of course great once you've pushed beyond this.
944 man
Active member
Irrespective of whether Brembo brakes are superior: Id like to re-state my original point, which was that the ATE brakes should be very impressive. If they dont provide massive retardation then somethings amiss.
I had a nearly new ATE car a good while ago (it was actually almost four years old but it had only covered 15,000 miles and was bought from inside Merlin's showroom, it was so clean). I always refer back to the performance of this car as a benchmark and the brakes were superb.
My 1989 car is greatly inferior to this and also to my 25yr-old series one car. I believe that its the pads as it has had new fluid, one caliper and braided hoses and the feel still remains the same. Its possible that either of our cars could have hot pads fitted, although I dont believe that thats the case with mine.
I had a nearly new ATE car a good while ago (it was actually almost four years old but it had only covered 15,000 miles and was bought from inside Merlin's showroom, it was so clean). I always refer back to the performance of this car as a benchmark and the brakes were superb.
My 1989 car is greatly inferior to this and also to my 25yr-old series one car. I believe that its the pads as it has had new fluid, one caliper and braided hoses and the feel still remains the same. Its possible that either of our cars could have hot pads fitted, although I dont believe that thats the case with mine.
I quite agree - and would extend that to over-servoed steering as well. Terrible thing.
What is worse is that people tend to think that brakes that come on strongly with little pedal pressure are good brakes, which is not the case at all. I drove a base-spec focus estate, heavily laden, the other week and had to stop hard from a high speed. Nasty experience, as those lovely, sensitive, low-pedal-force brakes proved themselves to have very very little ultimate stopping power: a salutory reminder of the difference between sensitive brakes and good brakes. Ugh!
Oli.
sawood12
New member
Your 944 should be at least on par with your CRX's weight for weight, should be better. These cars are not over-servo'd so have a very different feel - longer brake pedal travel before anything happens, more effort required. This is all as intended and is there for better brake modulation and feel. With a bit of practice and getting used to you should be able to open up a whole new world. Brakes are not on/off devices like most other cars' overservo'd brakes - like most Jap cars i've ever driven - my mates Civil Type R brakes are rubbish in comparison. They have so little feel and feedback you just end up pushing upto the AbS every time - you have no idea when they are going to bite. With my 944 on OEM pads I could anticipate exactly when the ABS was about to kick in and hold it just off the ABS threshold for maximum retardation. The EBC pads totally destroyed this for me as they just lacked the feedback the OEM pads had. No doubt if you got them upto temp you'd get that back, but you couldn't get them hot enough on the road. In time you will get a feel for exactly what is happening between the tyres and tarmac. It is like getting an extra sense. Even brand new Porsches are the same.
ChasR
New member
At the risk of being flamed, there is a reason why EBCs carry the saying of being Extremely Bad Crap. On my MGB, the Ferodo DS pads were a whole world apart from the EBC Greenstuff pads in every way. But marketing and the 'modduhs' play their bit in promoting their pads (oddly enough they've not been too bad on my cross country bike and I understand that EBC aren't too bad in the motorbike industry either).
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