What Brake Pads?

[Guest]

I would like to get some idea of people' s experiences with different brake pads, in the context of track use or at least very heavy road use.

I will start the ball rolling.

OE: Disaster. Overheated, faded and didn' t stop very well. In their defence, the fluid may have been a little old and the track was very short and stop-start not allowing much in the way of cooling down time.

Porterfield R4: Nice. Did all they were supposed to do and never let me down. Lasted 5 track days. Not so hot when cold but adequate for the road. Not cheap.

Pagid Blue: Good alrounder. Similar to Porterfield but not quite as grippy. Better on the road and when cold. Seem to have a tendancy to glaze when used on the road, then when you really stand on them they groan a bit. Also expensive.

Pagid Orange: Track daddies. Awesome on track but not good on the road when cold. I used to use them on a lightweight (ie 1,000kg) 1972 911 where they were marginal. On my fatboy Carrera I would hesitate to use everyday. Also have a tendancy to leave pad material on the discs unless bedded in very carefully. Expensive.

I would be very interested to here about Mintex and Performance Friction pads if anyone has experience and also how much they cost and where you bought them. I will leaf thru my invoices and post prices for the above tomorrow.

ciao,
Richard

 

[Guest]

I use EBC Greenstuff pads. They are quite soft so wear quicker than normal. Kevlar based so my wheels are much easier to clean & polish. They also work great from cold.

Way better than OE. Purchased from a shop in Glasgow - Pistons & Components

 

[ClubSport 911]

Agree with Chris...and having access to the Club Sport register (and a whole bunch of people who race them as a result) can vouch that EBC greens are a great halfway house. Of course, specialist pads exists, but all have other -ve' s (i.e don' t work from cold or squeal or wear discs rapido...). Good post / nice topic

Steve

 

[Jamie Summers]

I' ve got Greenstuffs on the front and OE on the back. Haven' t tracked them yet or had to stand particularly hard on them, but for day to day use they are absolutely fine. The one real bonus is that they don' t produce clouds of black brake dust like the OE pads - wheels stay shinier longer !
I' m doing a trackday next weekend so will report on their performance or lack thereof after that !

Jamie

 

[Robbiemeister]

An interloper from the 944 register here, but the subject interests me so I thought I' d chip in.

I have 944 Turbo used for occasional road and track day use.

Currently:

Rear: OEM
Front: Porterfield RS4

First track day in the car yesterday. No problems.

However the squeal and brake dust on the wheels makes them a pain for road use also very expensive in my opinion at about £180 an axle.

My other car is a Celica GT4 for which I have tracked with Pagid' s Fast Road compound and last year did about 10 track days with them. No Problems at all untill the end of the year when they got a bit thin and started to fade and judder.

These Pagid FR' s are available for my 944 at £61 per axle, so I may try them and if no good swap out for track days

I don' t know which calipers 3.2' s have but if they are the same as the late 944 (alloy 4 pot Brembo' s) the pads are piece of cake to change and it almost makes it feasable to have different pads for road and track use.

Regards

 

[Guest]

Great to have some responses.

Chris, do you use EBC Greens on track. I have heard very bad things about the early Greenstuffs - but the compound has been changed at least once since the originals. I heard that they would wear very quickly when used in extremis ie on track. I have seen similar happen to Redstuffs on an E30 M3. The pads were literally gone after a half day. I guess at the least it would be worth keeping a very close eye on wear.

Steve, if you have more info from the Clubsport register then I would love to know it. Perhaps you can persuade some of the Clubsport racers to chime in.

Jamie, interesting mix of pads. Should move your bias a little to the front. Let us know your experience on track. As the 89 3.2 has a proportioning valve, it shouldn' t need the bias altered but maybe this is an unintended consequence?

Robbie, a 944 Turbo (or an S2) has bigger callipers than a 3.2 (4 piston vs 2 piston) and your rotors are thicker (28mm vs 24mm IIRC). Changing pads at the end of a track day is one hassle I try to avoid - changing tyres is enough - but you are right, it is possible. What is a Pagid Fast Road pad? At that price, presumably not a Pagid Blue, as these are a bit more pricey.

Keep the responses coming. Still hoping for Mintex (1155 and 1144 compound) and Performance Friction feedback.

Thanks,
Richard

 

[Robbiemeister]

ORIGINAL: Richard Bernau

Great to have some responses.

................... Changing pads at the end of a track day is one hassle I try to avoid - changing tyres is enough - but you are right, it is possible.........................

...................What is a Pagid Fast Road pad? At that price, presumably not a Pagid Blue, as these are a bit more pricey.....................


Thanks,
Richard

Richard

I agree about changing the pads at the track. I usually change the wheels at home before I go so would do the pads at the same time.

Check here for a description of the various types of Pagid pad:

http://www.motorsportworld.co.uk/frame-detail.asp?PAGE=/pagid-pads-discs.htm

A couple of people have mentioned the Blue as a good choice, a guy at Castle Combe on Monday said he had just paid about £250 for a full set for a 968.

Fast Road are much cheaper £40+VAT for the front of my Celica GT4. But I cocked up on the price for the Porsche, the price I mentioned, £61 I think, is for EBC Greens. You have to phone the above people to get the Pagid Prices. I phoned them last week, they were busy and said they would get back to me, but they didn' t.

I have just checked with them now and the FR are £70.92 for 4 and the Blue are £149.48 for 4.

I' m going to order a set of FR for the front and see how they go.

Regards

 

[Jamie Summers]

Richard,
I haven' t noticed a particular change in the brake bias with the Greenstuffs, although as I mentioned I haven' t really pushed it yet. Funnily enough according to EBC the recommended set up for a 3.2 (admittedly for largely road use) is Greenstuffs on the front and Blackstuffs on the back. The Blackstuffs are direct OE replacements and about the same price, so seeing as I had a brand new pair of OE' s on the rear I decided to stick with them until they' re knackered. May go with the Blackstuffs at that point or maybe the Greens ..... who knows ?

I was a bit chicken about upgrading all round in one go - I' d heard stories from friends with Elises that Greenstuffs can be pretty terrible when cold and seeing as most of my driving is slowish town driving it' s difficult to get up the heat. That said a Porker weighs about 3 Elises so the heat builds up in the brakes rather quicker I guess ! For the record the Greenstuffs have performed every bit as well as OE pads for day to day use from cold so I think my initial concern was probably misplaced. Bring on the track day !

Jamie

 

[Guest]

Richard,
I haven' t noticed a particular change in the brake bias with the Greenstuffs, although as I mentioned I haven' t really pushed it yet. Funnily enough according to EBC the recommended set up for a 3.2 (admittedly for largely road use) is Greenstuffs on the front and Blackstuffs on the back. The Blackstuffs are direct OE replacements and about the same price, so seeing as I had a brand new pair of OE' s on the rear I decided to stick with them until they' re knackered. May go with the Blackstuffs at that point or maybe the Greens ..... who knows ?

I was a bit chicken about upgrading all round in one go - I' d heard stories from friends with Elises that Greenstuffs can be pretty terrible when cold and seeing as most of my driving is slowish town driving it' s difficult to get up the heat. That said a Porker weighs about 3 Elises so the heat builds up in the brakes rather quicker I guess ! For the record the Greenstuffs have performed every bit as well as OE pads for day to day use from cold so I think my initial concern was probably misplaced. Bring on the track day

Greenstuffs are a fast road pad not so much a track pad (according to EBCs description) so they should be fine for everyday. In hindsight I doubt you will notice the change in bias - it is probably quite small.

As a rule of thumb, the lighter the car the softer the pad (and tyre), hence Elises and Caterhams tend to use very soft pads (and tyres) without the same concerns that we have.

Richard

 

[Guest]

Richard
Ive never used them on the track but plan to in the summer.

I' ve found the Greenstuffs to perform much better than OE from cold and way better under ' spirited' driving.

 

[Guest]

Just wanted to add some more information.

Looking thru my receipts (scary process that left my wallet gasping at the memories) I found that a full set of Pagid Blues cost me £200 (from JAZ). The Porterfield R4s cost me £180 (imported from the USA but available from Ninemeister).

The Mintex 1155s I am interested in are looking like being £150 (from Classic + Rally or nearly £170 from Demon Tweeks), but I have to confirm the shape of the backing plates. These will take 3-6 weeks.

If any suppliers can match or better the prices they should post HERE!

ciao,

Richard

 

[Guest]

More info.

I can get Mintex 1155s from www.motorsportworld.co.uk for only ***£103*** for a full set. IMHO this is a great price for a track biased high temp pad.

I made my order today and will let you know what I think in due course.

I have no connection to these guys, but from what I see on their website I think they have very competitive prices, so I recommend you take a look next time you are in the market for motorsport bits and bobs.

ciao,
Richard[]

 

[Robbiemeister]

Richard

Interestingly Motorsport World have offered me Mintex 1144.

Do you know the difference?

Quote was £150 all in for F&R.

Interestingly I just got this from the Mintex website:
=================================

C-Tech Product Information
The Mintex brand is the most famous when it comes to motorsport. Through intense Research and Development Mintex materials cater not only for Original Equipment and Aftermarket needs but at the other extreme for competition purposes. It is from motorsport that the latest family of Mintex materials have been developed.


Known as C-Tech, these materials cover a whole spectrum of vehicles from a typical small hot hatchback for normal day to day use, through to a fully race prepared 700 bhp racing machine.

1144 is the material for fast road use as well as light competition such as karting, hill climb and single seater racing cars.
One of the main characteristics of this material is the ability to work from cold, which gives the user the confidence of a standard material on the first application of the brakes. The benefit of M1144 is experienced as the temperature within the brakes starts to increase. M1144 will remain stable and consistent through to 450c where a standard material at this temperature will most certainly start to fade. The bedding in procedure for M1144 is the same as any standard material i.e. steady braking for the first 50 miles, avoiding emergency stops. All M1144 pads are supplied with fully branded C-Tech anti noise shims and a C-Tech sticker.


1155 is purely designed for competition use and under no circumstances should be used for normal road applications. Applications such as Group A and N rally cars and circuit saloons best suit this material. M1155 has a similar friction level to M1144 but remains consistent to a maximum operating temperature of 550-600c. Like M1144 there are no special bedding in procedures for M1155.

 

[Guest]

This is correct.

1155s are roughly equivalent to the Orange compound in the Pagid range - but at the price I can' t turn them down really. I have part worn OE pads and part worn Pagid Blues so if I have to change them for the road then so be it. My guess is however that Mintex' s health warning is somewhat overblown. In this increasingly litigious society, it is only natural for a manufacturer to cover their backside by saying do not use these pads on the road in any circumstances. I have used Pagid Orange on the road fairly regularly.

I will keep you posted though.

ciao,
Richard

 

[Jamie Summers]

Well folks as promised I' m reporting back after yesterday' s trackday experiences with the Greenstuff / OE mix.

In a word - hopeless ! The combination just didn' t seem to work at all. The fronts kept locking up whilst the rears just weren' t doing anything, the balance was just way off. I had a choice of on (ie locked !) or off (as in off the track !), absolutely no progressive braking at all. There' s no denying the fronts were gripping, but with no help from the rears they didn' t stand much of a chance. The brake pedal was going to the floor after about two laps.

One of the instructors (a 993 owner) suggested that it was most likely just the mismatch of pads causing the problem rather than anything more sinister, but if anyone has any useful suggestions I' d be grateful. One thing that I have noticed which may or may not be relevant is that the left hand brake warning light on the dash (hand book says it' s handbrake / braking system) has been permanently on since the Greenstuffs were put on the front a couple of months ago. My car spends 95% of it' s time on the road with the occasional trackday thrown in for fun - but clearly I need to be able to make the damn thing stop !

Jamie

 

[Guest]

Jamie

I used to have the light on the dashboard on permanently when I had pads with no wear sensor slot (Porterfield). Now I have Pagid fast road, with the appropriate slot, and sensors, and all is well on the light front. Have yet to try them on the track, so can' t say what they will be like.

 

[Jamie Summers]

John,
Thanks, but I' m pretty sure the pad wear warning light is the right hand one, and that is fine (ie not permanently on !) on my car !

Jamie

 

[Guest]

In a word - hopeless ! The combination just didn' t seem to work at all. The fronts kept locking up whilst the rears just weren' t doing anything, the balance was just way off. I had a choice of on (ie locked !) or off (as in off the track !), absolutely no progressive braking at all. There' s no denying the fronts were gripping, but with no help from the rears they didn' t stand much of a chance. The brake pedal was going to the floor after about two laps.

One of the instructors (a 993 owner) suggested that it was most likely just the mismatch of pads causing the problem rather than anything more sinister, but if anyone has any useful suggestions I' d be grateful. One thing that I have noticed which may or may not be relevant is that the left hand brake warning light on the dash (hand book says it' s handbrake / braking system) has been permanently on since the Greenstuffs were put on the front a couple of months ago. My car spends 95% of it' s time on the road with the occasional trackday thrown in for fun - but clearly I need to be able to make the damn thing stop !

Hi Jamie,

I would be interested to know what track (as this may make a difference). My worst track day ever was an airfield day. Far from the vast expanses and open spaces I expected, it was a very tight course with multiple chicanes and hairpins designed to keep the speeds down with little thought to driving pleasure. The straights were so short that the brakes never cooled down between applications. Airfield days, far from being safe, are often very dangerous IMHO. The only time I have hit anything was a wet airfield day where a Ferrari laid oil round the whole track - but I digress and it was only cones and a tyre!

You indeed seem to have a brake bias issue. The easy fix is to go for a full set of established high performance pads. In the last two weeks I have spoken to a number of suppliers about EBC and unfortunately heard nothing positive. The common comment was that they are more Max Power than max performance. One refused to sell them for a Porsche application! I personally know that Pagid Blue and Porterfield R4 work very well on road and track. At a price though. I have found out that you can get Mintex 1144s for just over £100 for a full set - so that is another option at a price not much more than EBCs.

My Mintexs arrived today. I have 1155s for the front and surprisingly 1144s for the rear. I called the supplier and complained but they said that 1155 rears are custom order. I will try them but may have to custom order the rears if there is a balance problem. Slightly disappointed.

Dare I ask what tyres you are running? This will make a difference. Good tyres are obviously more difficult to lock up. I have recently been running around on P0Cs and they are outstanding under hard braking - as soon as the weight transfers you can really lean on the brakes without lockup. Brilliant but you have to watch the mirrors for rapidly approaching cars with all four wheels locked up[]

I have said this before, but it is worth repeating: after good fluid (I use AP600) and good pads you need fresh cold air. I use a ducting kit but even pulling off the dust sheilds is a help - it costs virtually nothing if it coincides with a disc change. The Carrera discs are marginal for the later cars full of heavy options once you add heavy track use into the equation. If you lack heat sink capacity then cooling becomes paramount.

Richard

 

[Jamie Summers]

Thanks for all of that Richard. I was indeed on an airfield (Enstone, a very good day - not really a trackday as such, more a car control tuition day), safety really wasn' t an issue here as there were only 9 cars there in total and only ever 3 out at a time. The brakes were working pretty hard 0-60-0 tests and stopping in boxes etc and by the end the fronts were locking up at every corner. I was having to start braking so early to stop locking up that it was just ridiculous, to the point where I was starting to just put the car sideways to scrub off some speed (and rubber !). There was a decent 100mph+ straight but the rest of the circuit was pretty twisty to be fair.
Tyres could be an issue I suppose - I' m running Avon ZZ1' s at the minute (still the set I bought the car with) - the fronts are toast now but the rears are practically new so I don' t really want to change all four in one go at the minute and mixing front and rear isn' t such a great idea - so I might have to go with another set of ZZ1' s on the front (unless everone is now laughing at me for an unwitting tyre choice gaff !!!)
The car' s about to go in for a 4-wheel alignment so I might take the opportunity to ditch all of the current pads even though they' ve got plenty of life in them (even after yesterday) and go for something else - those Mintex sound like an idea and I like the price ! Perhaps some higher temp fluid too ......

Jamie

 

[ClubSport 911]

Hi Richard. I' m about to start working on the " top tips" and recommendations from the Club Sport perspective. We do have quite a number of Full-on racers in the register, but as yet, few if any of them are in regular e-mail contact, and owners are all over the world. To uncover this data, is however part of my grand plan.

I do know that one of the register members has some solid (yes you read that right) Anti-roll bar bushes for the car ! - my word.. the lightweight car, and firmer dampers already make this car a touch skittish on rough groud, so no idea what this yields. My car was owned and raced by Andy Rouse, and underwent significant series racing in late 80' s... All CS owners add extra cooling, although many many people stick to a pad upgrade and that' s it.

Don' t forget all the fancy talk about pads is pure physics. Brakes are heat-sinks. When the energy i/p - energy o/p (i.e heat) then the braking effect tends to zero - irrespective of the mu value of the pad.

Furthermore, the easiest way to improve your braking is to ...... wait for it..... reduce the weight of the car. OK - sorry for long post, but will get back when more data is @ my fingertips.

Good thread. !

Steve (R10)