What power would you expect...!

996dom · Mar 3, 2009

I've just had my 944T mapped and to be honest I was hoping for some slightly better figures!
The car has just had a Lindsey 61 turbo, 3" turbo Lindsey exhaust, 55 injectors plus the Promax stage 2 kit and a Apexi boost controller. With just the promax stage 2 kit, full exhaust and boost controller it registered 285bhp/280ib/ft torque on the rolling road.

I would like to here what power you think my car should be producing with all the above mod's.

Cheers

Dom

u63af · Mar 3, 2009

What boost are you running?

944 man · Mar 3, 2009

I wouldnt be surprised to hear that the Lindsey kit failed to impress. I always cringe when the name comes up in conversation... Im not familiar with the turbo: my first question would be whats accepted max for the original turbocharger? My second would be what is your charge temperature? If Im honest: I wouldnt expect to get a deal over 300bhp running the original Bosch DME, if that.

DavidL · Mar 3, 2009

ORIGINAL: 996dom

I've just had my 944T mapped and to be honest I was hoping for some slightly better figures!
The car has just had a Lindsey 61 turbo, 3" turbo Lindsey exhaust, 55 injectors plus the Promax stage 2 kit and a Apexi boost controller. With just the promax stage 2 kit, full exhaust and boost controller it registered 285bhp/280ib/ft torque on the rolling road.

Dom, So this is 285 at the flywheel with just the promax kit, exhaust etc? I would have thought that was a bit light assuming its a 250 not a 220.
With the rest I have no idea but there are lots of people into this black art who will give you a better idea - I'm trying to resist going that route.....

Suffolk944 · Mar 3, 2009

I would say 290-300bhp for the Level 2 kit on an originally 250BHP car (without the replacement turbo and injectors) is about right judging from various results from such equipped cars on our "Rollers of truth" days in the past. With the other additions am not sure what you "should" expect though of course many rolling roads are not consistent on the results they give and results from two seperate rr's cant be compared with any confidence. Then factors such as engine condition etc also have a bearing.

Diver944 · Mar 3, 2009

It all depends what boost presure you are running. If you are able to hit 1.2bar (18psi ) and hold it until the redline then you should be around the 320bhp 330lbft +/-20 depending on engine condition

There have been a few cars still on the DME with aftermarket Turbos in that sort of ballpark on Ricks league table at http://www.cannell.co.uk/944%20UK%20League.htm

Unfortunately the table isn't fully working at the moment so we can't see exactly which cars have what Turbocharger. I know there are a couple of LR61's on there (John Sims is one though he uses a Link Map setup)

Do remember that different Dynos on different days can give wildly different readings

MarkK · Mar 3, 2009

I have had no problems and am v pleased with Lindsey gear,got one of their turbos plus a couple of other bits,do you have something simple like a boost leak?Have checked your engines compression?Dynos vary like anything...

996dom · Mar 4, 2009

I understand that I would get different readings on the 2 dynos, I will get the car on the original rollers just for comparison. Once I've collected the car and given it a good run I'll post my thoughts and any question which I might have, also I'll post what boost I'm running and if it is holding it.

Thanks for the link Diver944, it's nice to see what other people have had done and also their results.

Thanks for all the replies.

I forgot that I also had a John Mitchell stage 1 intercooler fitted as well so it'll be interesting to see what my charge temp. is..I'll post this as well.

os951 · Mar 4, 2009

I wonder why people here in europe buy grab turbos from the states.... These Lindsey units are so badly built, that i am not suprised you have low hp figures. Design of these "high tech" chargers is from '50's, mainly their wheel geometry is not what is should be. If you have a possibility to measure the pack pressure, i suppose you understand what i ,mean. These Lindsey chargers are also very poorly engineerd, parts do not fit as they should. Two friends of mine were at the dyno several years ago. Another one had the same Lindsey unit you have installed into his 951S. Problems started when there was less than 300 hp, pack pressure was just amazing.Car produced 330hp. Otherwise stock except this "High-Grab" unit + AFM Link MAP coversion with Guru chip set. Another 951 used KKK26/6 modified Holset turbine & compressor wheels. It also had same AFM Link MAP systems addes. It produced 350hp. So modified KKK was much better than "high-tech-US-made" thing.
We have a lot turbo knowledge in Europe, do not belive what americans say ! I have seen so many times badly designed US made turbos, i wonder do they not even know the basics how to build a decent turbo. We have had great results with Holset chargers (made in UK) installed to 951. I can highly recommend them. Skip those Lindsey units, skip even Garrets, their wings are not even close to what Holset have.
btw. my friends Lindsey "Super-Grab" lasted about 20000km's. After that it caused a huge oil consumption. It was all torned out and it needed a major overhaul. A local Holset guru rebuilt it. There is now a T04 compressor housing with Holset wheel. Turbine housing could be used otherwise it was more or less built with new parts. Car wheels totally different now. When snow melts and polar bears go back to north again, it's time to make some dyno measurements.
It makes me sad to read also in UK based forum these "Stage-things". Please leve that to americans. Only in america you should have all so "Staged", they are not so innovative as people are in europe,Australia,NZ etc.etc. so all have to be designed ready for them and after that "Staged" [

]
Even some americans are against this stage thing, even John at Vitesse racing. He sells "Staged" things even him self, but he once explained me it is a must with americans [:'(]
When we compare this "Stages", is it some official system, like metric system or something else. It's hard to compare Lindsey Stage something for example to Vitesse or Promax Stage something.

Here's pictures of that Lindsey unit (our Holset Guru suspect that they have used some chinese parts with these...)

Here's what my friend wrote on Rennlist concerning this "Special-Charger":

While I do not have any own car to work on/in/under, I changed turbo to my friend's car. Initially it was supposed to be a rebuild, but it became something bigger.
Reason for the rebuild idea was heavy smoking and thus excessive oil consumption. There was A LOT of play in the shaft, which appeared quite fast, without any signs of unbalance of the compressor wheel ( no marks in blades ).
I took the turbo to Garrett's official importer, and their comments of this particular item were shocking. "WTF is this puzzle, and where it is bought from? Seems to be built from various & mysterious parts. It's sad when people buy expensive polished s*** when there's OEM or reliable aftermarket ( = Garrett / Holset etc ) items available cheaper. I guess that there were no compressor charts etc available... "

Oh well, there was some problems with boost threshold with this particular turbo...it spooled at 4+k rpm ( totally lifeless below ) and produced 330 crankhp while my own modified spooled at 3,5k and did 350 crankhp with all other engine mods being similar back then.
And this was not all. When the turbo was disassembled, some oddities were found, or should we say mismatches. Turbine wheel was so big that the compressor housing was machined too big, no diffuser area left. It was also not mated with the backplate...there's the notch where it should be in.

See this picture from Garrett's page, espacially how turbine wheel sits in the housing and the backplate. No such thing in this creature:

Somehow it was just raisd above it with spacer. No wonder that there were no boost below 4k. "This compressor has nothing to do with charging of air!" was the comment. The shaft's seal was of ancient coal/carbon type. The meaning of this was not quite clear to me...but apparently it was not to date.
Center piece had to be changed too, there were some threaded ( but plugged ) holes comprimising oil and water separating. The good news, shaft, turbine wheel and housing could be used.
Now it has TO4 compressor housing with appropriate wheel. It will be dynoed during the spring, but it should work better...

944 man · Mar 4, 2009

People dont want to hear a bad word said against Lindsey Racing..... Personally Id be speaking to someone like Andy Forest and seeing what he could do with my existing turbo. Failing that Id look at a hybrid Mitsubishi TD05 18G or similar.....

os951 · Mar 4, 2009

They have also some good stuff, but i would be quite careful what to buy from them.

Check out the Holset unit installed into 951 engine.

TTM · Mar 4, 2009

Well, there has to be a reason why turbochargers from Lindsey are not among the most expensive on the market...

Would a Holset fit straight onto the engine mount?

os951 · Mar 4, 2009

No, engine mount is modified.

TTM · Mar 4, 2009

It seems to me you are comparing two types of products that don't target the same kind of customer.

I am far from being an expert with turbochargers in general (maybe that could explain why I post on a web forum [

]), and I would believe the LR units are aimed at people who are after a moderately-priced bolt-on turbo. No hassle, quick fit, technically simple.

It makes sense to me there are turbochargers that are cheap and others that aren't and require a good thinking in modifying other parts of the car to make them fit (engine mount, exhaust, water piping, etc).

Diver944 · Mar 4, 2009

ORIGINAL: 996dom

I will get the car on the original rollers just for comparison. Once I've collected the car and given it a good run I'll post my thoughts and any question which I might have, also I'll post what boost I'm running and if it is holding it.

That will be very useful for comparison purposes as without those bits of info it's very difficult to draw any meaningful conclusion.

Keep an eye on Ricks website as he's hopefully fixing it soon and you should then see the full table of about 30 UK Turbos all tested at the same premises and also listing all their various mods and boost pressures. It will help to see if yours is performing as it should

os951 · Mar 4, 2009

I am far from being an expert with turbochargers in general (maybe that could explain why I post on a web forum ), and I would believe the LR units are aimed at people who are after a moderately-priced bolt-on turbo. No hassle, quick fit, technically simple.

It makes sense to me there are turbochargers that are cheap and others that aren't and require a good thinking in modifying other parts of the car to make them fit (engine mount, exhaust, water piping, etc).

At least in my friends case LR turbo caused a LOT of hassle, great expenses and waste of time. This "hightech" unit might be bolt on, but if it does not do what it should, does not last very long, i do not see any reason why to buy them. They surely are technically simple, they have nothing to do with turbo chargers [

]

Also bolt-on chargers can be built as they should be. I wonder why LR sells chargers like my friend bought.
Modifying these cars is part of this hobby. It is NOT that difficult to modify engine mounts or down pipes, after all in most cases you should have larger diameter down pipe if you use something else than KKK units (or do you want to buy also these from LR...). Holset does not use water at all, so only minor mods required, like installing 944 n/a version water expansion tank and remove all unnecessary turbo water circulation items.
We have done almost all of these modifications locally, i do not see any reason why i should buy these parts from overseas when i have friends who have talent to fabricate parts and when i have some talent as well to do something. I have few friends (with 951's) who had not skills to work with their cars. After several years they can do almost everything by themselves. After all, modifying a 951 is NOT a rocket science [

]
When economic situation is what it is, it's good to support your local companies (or at lest EU based companies) and not throw your money overseas. After all UK is the HOME of motorsports, you still have a lot of companies which fabricates tune up parts. Use those companies. If there is not readily available 951 parts; you guys should unite, make group buys, some companies are surely willing to help you out. That what we have done here in Finland. If we wanted some parts, our own 951 group is just too small. We have make connections to Sweden, Germany,Switzerland,Australia,UK etc.etc. Then we have arranged these group buys and have these parts done.
Here's some of those 951 items (all glassfibre parts are own production):

TTM · Mar 4, 2009

Heil Finland !! [

]

944Turbo · Mar 5, 2009

Some nice work there, well done!

os951 · Mar 5, 2009

What i try to say here is:

-Be innovative
-Do not be afraid of making mistakes, study you car and learn to fix/update it
-Discuss with other 951 owners who have already been there, they can give you a lot of advice
-Do not get blinded by fancy american websites. They are not offering the absolute truth
-Check out also other brand turbo cars. You can copy most good solutions also to 951
-Unite with other 951 owners.As a group you can help each other and also get parts cheaper

I have been with 944's over ten years. I have owned my 951 ten years, before 944's i was involved to 911's. I usually get ~10 mails daily from younger 951/S2/944 owners concerning all kind of tecnical issues. i am happy to help these younger persons to learn their car better.