Which car for track days?

leesweeney · Aug 2, 2006

Having posted the recent thread regarding opinions on re-mapping my 993 which nearly led to outright war amongst contributors I thought I would really stir it up! (although I found it very helpful and have decided to give the re-map a try)

I am considering acquiring a car that's main (but not only) function in life will be track days. The 993 wont be sold as that's the jewel in the crown. I could spend up to about £14,000 at an absolute push and it needs to meet the following critieria:

1) Be a 911 (yes, yes I know 968's are wonderfully balanced tremendous track day tools but I just can't get excited about that shape and only 4 cylinders no matter how good they are)
2) Be (nearly) perfectly useable on the road. It will get a fair bit of Sunday cruise type road use so is always going to have to be a compromise. I would sacrifice some track performance in order to keep all my fillings in place.
3) Be reliable. I am a mechanical moron (some would say just a moron) so will do nothing to it myself for fear of wrecking it completely. Continuous oil leaks and the likes are an absolute no-no.
4) Have a minimum of 5 forward gears.
5) Look good, but then which 911 hasn't.
6) Zillions of bhp is a secondary issue.

Easy eh? What would you wise one's suggest and what sort of milegae car would I get for my hard earned? Or, am I just completely dreaming for that kind of money?

A heavily modded 'track day special' isn't for me. Clean, tidy and relatively original would appeal much more.

Thanks and before you all start slating each other for such rediculous notions they are only opinions!

burrow01 · Aug 2, 2006

Hi Lee

Why not just track your 993 after the remap [

]

How many track days a year would you be looking to do?

Pete

Pickled Piper · Aug 2, 2006

Am I missing something? Surely the 993 fits all the criteria and you already have one of those. If you have 14K burning a hole in your pocket why not spend it on the 9M Billet heads etc?

pp

Rotorhead · Aug 2, 2006

You missed 'Lightweight'.

Less is more, particularly on track. Lightness enhances all the dynamics - accelaration, braking, steering, handling, performance..... Why else do race teams invest so much effort in weight saving. And the 911, whichever model, really does benefit from going on a diet.

So, it just depends which generation you want - 2.7RS, 911 CS, 964RS, 993RS. Or you could create your own hybrid.

oliverjamesthomas · Aug 2, 2006

ORIGINAL: oliver

You missed 'Lightweight'.

Less is more, particularly on track. Lightness enhances all the dynamics - accelaration, braking, steering, handling, performance..... Why else do race teams invest so much effort in weight saving. And the 911, whichever model, really does benefit from going on a diet.

So, it just depends which generation you want - 2.7RS, 911 CS, 964RS, 993RS. Or you could create your own hybrid.

The problem is you won't get any of the above for the budget. But there is another way........

Go classic and buy a nice 912. No, I'm not joking......[

] They're relatively cheap and you'd certainly get a nice one for your budget and have change left over. The bodyshell is 911, the suspension is 911, but the engine has two less cylinders and therefore has less weight. If you're lucky, you might find one with a 1720cc converted engine.

Yes, I know, half the forum will think I've gone nuts! Believe me though, there's an awful lot of fun to be had with one. The fact they're light and have less power means you adopt a different style than you would in a more modern 911, but when the penny drops you will have a massive smile on your face. The other thing that'll make you smile is when you pass your first 911.....[

] Ask me how I know.............

Regards

burrow01 · Aug 2, 2006

ORIGINAL: oliver

You missed 'Lightweight'.

Less is more, particularly on track. Lightness enhances all the dynamics - accelaration, braking, steering, handling, performance..... Why else do race teams invest so much effort in weight saving. And the 911, whichever model, really does benefit from going on a diet.

So, it just depends which generation you want - 2.7RS, 911 CS, 964RS, 993RS. Or you could create your own hybrid.

14k is not going to get you any of those cars, unless you have a secret stash somewhere [

]

But you can save a lot of weight from a 993, especially if you have some cash in the bank

Pete

kennyboy · Aug 3, 2006

Am I missing something? Surely the 993 fits all the criteria and you already have one of those. If you have 14K burning a hole in your pocket why not spend it on the 9M Billet heads etc?

Lee you sly dog, you kept that quiet! I agree with Pickled.....you've got the perfect base car already - and with 9m heads, M030, LWF etc it could be everything you want on the track too.. plus you could then drive straight to the restaurant and still look the part! [

]

Hang on what am I saying, don't do it! - coz' as soon as I see your car I'll remortgage and do the same! [8D]

38F3E1 · Aug 3, 2006

OK .....

The 993 is not a very good track car in standard form. It's too heavy. I know somebody who is spending more time on the track than he used to and is selling his 993 because he wants something more suitable.

A yes he had already done the sensible track mods such as PSS9 suspension kit to the 993. His only option to make it really go on track was to up the engine power and make it lightweight by ripping out lots of stuff. He didn't want to do that as its a nice road car and he would never get his money back either.

I am not dissing the 993 as I think in standard form its a fantastic car on the road and I would never sell mine. Much much better than previous models but its too heavy if you want a serious track toy.

Rather than spend 14K on engine mods to a 993 I would also rather build a lightweight track car from an earlier model. A 3.2 or SC would be a good choice as these are new enough to be able to drive around the country to different tracks. Even a pre 73 makes a good base for one of these but they are not so cheap these days and not so reliable to drive around. Or you might get lucky and pick up a scruffy 964 for the money but you won't have any budget to set it up properly.

Assuming say a 3.2 or an SC you should budget to do the upgrades to make it good on the track (and your 14K in total should cover it). Take out all the weight you can from the interior, a couple of lightweight seats, glass fiber bonnet and engine lid, decent suspension setup, etc. It would still look nice enough and standard enough to drive around on the road but would be set up right for the track.

If you want to know more I can give you the number of someone who knows a lot about this area and could give you costs and options etc.

Ian.

clubsport · Aug 3, 2006

993 with Pss9 and a few other mods makes a great track car....
I started trackdays with an '89 3.2 clubsport, a great car and relatively light, but in standard form the brakes and lack of outight power were the deciding factors to make me move on.
My last 2 porsche used on road and track have been 993 and I do not see that changing in the future [

]

Pickled Piper · Aug 3, 2006

I know this doesn't answer the original question but I claim my perogative to digress.

If I wanted a serious out and out track toy and had 14k to spend I would probably go for a Caterham / Westfield type vehicle or maybe a Lotus Elise and keep my 993 for road use. However, I personally derive great pleasure from tracking my 993. It really is an all round vehicle. I can do the school run, drive to a track , thrap it round the circuit all day and then drive the car home via the supermarket for the weekly shop. How many other cars can you use in this way?

pp

Rotorhead · Aug 3, 2006

Agree with the Caterham suggestion (but not the Westfield).

A good Caterham, such as a 140bhp 1.6 Superlight, is enormous fun on road or track and it takes a pretty powerful 911 and a quick driver to keep up or get past. Elise is a bit more practical but not as quick.

Try www.blatchat.com

Sundeep · Aug 3, 2006

BMW M3 3.0 E36 ?

kennyboy · Aug 4, 2006

However, I personally derive great pleasure from tracking my 993. It really is an all round vehicle. I can do the school run, drive to a track , thrap it round the circuit all day and then drive the car home via the supermarket for the weekly shop.

I think that sums up exactly why many people spend so much money on upgrading their own 993 rather than moving to a RS/GT3 or Elise etc.... it's the pleasure gained from feeling first hand the benefits of mods you make, power increase, suspension upgrade, loss of weight etc - it's like a long, exciting journey to bankruptcy!

leesweeney · Aug 6, 2006

I posted this thread and then went on holiday for 3 days - on returning I am glad to see opinion split in so many ways, except this doesn't help me decide.

I agree I could heavily modify my 993 but it's a low milege beauty, nearly completely original bar motorsound airbox, RSR's and live re-map which I have done later this week. I just don't want to either de-value it or more importantly, spoil it. Each to their own.

As far Caterham's and Westfield - I am 6'2", 18 1/2 stone and have size 11 feet. I have been in both and even in a Caterham SV I need baby oil and a can opener to get in and out (or have I digressed on to another story!) and then a good month
in traction. As for Elises, I have also been around a track in one of those and realise that Lotus should be done for false advertising - the gear shift clearly showed 5 forward gears but I found that nothing happened after the first 2!

Porsche is thus the only marque for me and the 993 will remain cossetted but rarley used like some high class mistress (and just as expensive).

I think the conclusion from the majority of responses is that for my budget I am going to struggle.....Unless I go for a 3.2 or SC.

Can anyone advise on the merits of 3.2 vs SC in the affordable, driveable and reliable stakes?

Thanks again for the wise advice.

Rotorhead · Aug 6, 2006

Speak to Colin Belton.

Some years ago his own personal 911 was a very fast and lightened, but civilised, 3.2 Carrera.

He'll tell you exactly what to expect for your budget.

oceancarrera · Aug 6, 2006

ORIGINAL: leesweeney
I think the conclusion from the majority of responses is that for my budget I am going to struggle.....

Yes. Not for £14k. With a much higher budget, I think the Mk2 GT3 is about as good a track car you will find that also meets your no.2 criteria, in that it is also quite usable/comfortable on the road for regular use. The 996 has a bigger interior which makes it far more comfortable/amenable than the earlier generations if you are above average size. Issues of weight etc are somewhat negated by the GT3s higher power output and, more importantly, what it does with it via the dynamics of its superior chassis (vs earlier 911s).

burrow01 · Aug 6, 2006

I still think you are going to struggle to get decent SC / 3.2 and then do any worthwhile track modifications for 14K

A decent 3.2 (as in good bodywork and solid engine) is going to cost in the region of 12k. and SC will probably cost 8-10k, but will also potentially require more work - it will be at least 23 years old remember.

Some of the work will be cheap to do - removing interior trim, soundproofing etc, but a decent roll cage and seat will cost 1-1.5K, suspension updates do not come cheaply, and you will probably be wanting to upgrade the brakes, wheels and tyres.

It might be worth scanning the Motorsport press for something that has already been converted?

Alternatively, despite you saying you don't like the shape, buy a 944 Turbo, this will cost 4-9k (8k for a really good one) and leave you lots of cash for upgrades, trick motorsport bits etc, and it would still be a Porche [

]

My 2p

Are you coming to Bedford on the 12th Lee?

Cheers

Pete

leesweeney · Aug 7, 2006

ORIGINAL: oliver

Speak to Colin Belton.

Some years ago his own personal 911 was a very fast and lightened, but civilised, 3.2 Carrera.

He'll tell you exactly what to expect for your budget.

Thanks Oliver. Colin Belton keeps coming up as the man to talk to for just about anything. Obviously worth a call and I will give him a ring.

leesweeney · Aug 7, 2006

ORIGINAL: oceancarrera

ORIGINAL: leesweeney
I think the conclusion from the majority of responses is that for my budget I am going to struggle.....

Click to expand...

Yes. Not for £14k. With a much higher budget, I think the Mk2 GT3 is about as good a track car you will find that also meets your no.2 criteria, in that it is also quite usable/comfortable on the road for regular use. The 996 has a bigger interior which makes it far more comfortable/amenable than the earlier generations if you are above average size. Issues of weight etc are somewhat negated by the GT3s higher power output and, more importantly, what it does with it via the dynamics of its superior chassis (vs earlier 911s).

I would agree having taken a passenger ride around croft in a Mk2 GT3 by someone who knew what they were doing. I also got a ride the same day in a 996 TT and they were a world apart (as you might expect).

There is, however, a rather large difference between £14k and a GT3 and that is a gap which is just too wide.

leesweeney · Aug 7, 2006

ORIGINAL: burrow01

I still think you are going to struggle to get decent SC / 3.2 and then do any worthwhile track modifications for 14K

A decent 3.2 (as in good bodywork and solid engine) is going to cost in the region of 12k. and SC will probably cost 8-10k, but will also potentially require more work - it will be at least 23 years old remember.

Some of the work will be cheap to do - removing interior trim, soundproofing etc, but a decent roll cage and seat will cost 1-1.5K, suspension updates do not come cheaply, and you will probably be wanting to upgrade the brakes, wheels and tyres.

It might be worth scanning the Motorsport press for something that has already been converted?

Alternatively, despite you saying you don't like the shape, buy a 944 Turbo, this will cost 4-9k (8k for a really good one) and leave you lots of cash for upgrades, trick motorsport bits etc, and it would still be a Porche []

My 2p

Are you coming to Bedford on the 12th Lee?

Cheers

Pete

Cheers Pete. Not a fan of the 944 at all, would rather have a 968. Never have been a forced induction fan. A mate had an Impreza and could bore the pants off anyone who would listen about the 'wollop in the back' when the turbo kciked in. Not for me, I much prefer the more linear pick of a normally aspirated engine as you feel the the torque and power build - feels like a proper car.

Can't make Bedford on the 12th I am afraid as I have already been booked by my better half. Another time though and I will do my best to make it.