White smoke on start up

[Bloooor]

Hi, I have had a search through and come across head gasket issues, coolant getting in to cylinders and also high mileage engines needing a carbon clean but i'm just looking to see if anyone has had similar to what has been described to me by the owner (Haven't picked the car up yet but deposit has been put down) This is what he described the problem to be.

"it does smoke on the over run, but doesn't seem to get through much oil. If you rev much past 4 and a half thousand revs it burns a bit of oil too, but again, this has improved a lot with constant use, and I very rarely get past 4. It uses a little coolant, which I can't notice in the reservoir, but there a little white 'smoke' on start up on a cold day. I haven't had to top it up since I've had it though. Both these are sorted in a weekend with a light head refresh. It sits bang in the centre of the temp dial on the motorway (had a run to Tesco today, went to the one ten miles away for a little drive). For town driving these is a manual fan installed, which quickly pulls it down towards a quarter of the dial, even today when it's twenty degrees outside. Oil pressure is very good, in fact it is better than my GT3! "

To me it doesn't sound too much like the HG as it's not losing any coolant.. (or marginally) and also temp sitting as normal and no loss of power etc could it just be full of carbon? Car is a 1984 Lux with 134k miles on

Adam

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Hg often goes on for years showing little sign of failure, but can be in very poor shape. I'd either get it checked, or budget for it: personally I think it's worth doing on any 944 that hasn't got any record of it being changed in 30 years!

 

[DC911SC]

the manual fan is a bit interesting ie why have it that way......because the thermal switch wasnt working? this could mean that it has overheated in the past. Unless its track related I personally think manual fan switches are a bad idea leave it on and the batt goes flat, forget to turn it on and it overheats in town.

Best fixing it and making it right, I would assume the hg will need done, lapping the valves and replacing the stem oil seals is a pretty easy job and good for a wet winter night!

 

[DC911SC]

do you want to post more info, ie price, mileage etc etc might help

 

[T3rra]

There's no mention off miles vs use so it hard to say how much off situation you have.

944 are know to smoke a little in the winter due to the angle off the back box. However how much white smoke ?

Using oil past 4k how has this been tested. Depending upon level ground when check on dip stick you get vetting results as well as how long its had to cool down e.c.t.

Blue smoke over 4k when rev from still would sirguest worn top end

However unless this works been done its to be expected and expect it to be done

 

[924nutter]

I have a suggetion based on a similar experience with vauxhall VX 4/90. White smoke is not oil and anyway it is not consuming vast amounts..similarly the water level does not appear to be dropping signifcantly. Given the age it could be that the servo diaphragm is pourous in some way and some brake fluid has seeped in to the engine side if the servo. When you are on the over-run the engine is sucking against a closed butterfly with only the idle opening through which it tries to draw air. With the engine sucking hard if there is a slight leak of fluid it will be sucked in. Just disconnect the servo vacuum pipe at the manifold and and check for brake fluid. It it isn't that then I don't know what else to suggest. Remember that pretty much the last thing you do before switching off is stop the car, and again if the fluid is getting in, some will acccumulate ready to be sucked in on start up.
You can maximise the life of the Hg by being aware of the thermal gradient betwwen head and block and keeping the head temperature /block temp delta to a minimum buy not going much above 3000 rpm though the gears until normal operating temperature has been reached. This allows the block, head and gasket to expand together more evenly, minimising the fretting btween the gasket and the mating surfaces. As Paul says, budget for it, but it is not beyond the ability of a competent home mechanic, and if you were a member a belt tesioning tool would be available for you to borrow to check your handy work. The 944 egine is of wet liner design, there are larger areas of the gasket underneath the combustion chambers, covering the waterways, that are not supported by the block and in reality the gasket is effectively clamped between the bore sealing periphery and the thin lands around the oillways. It is proven technolgy and and works well, just repsect it.

 

[Veerzigzag]

not going much above 3000 rpm though the gears until normal operating temperature has been reached

Good tip !!

 

[david924s]

If it has never had any head work then with 134K miles the exhaust valve guides and possibly the inlet ones will be worn, apparently the exhaust ones have quite a short lifespan and a good source of smoke on over run, could also be a blocked crank breather pipe, or as has been suggested head gasket. Temp control for the electric fan should be easily fixed with a new sensor and relay I would have thought.

 

[DC911SC]

personally I think there is a bit of smoke and mirrors in the sellers text, if you excuse the pun.

The oil consumption is tricky how much is not a lot - a good slug every 30min drive? its like the boxster ads on ebay "slight white smoke on start up could be an easy fix" its basically the sellers way of saying its broken and needs pretty serious work but would like you to think that you are getting a good buy!
Alarms bells!
If the price is good go for it, if you can do the work even better, worst case you could be talking top end rebuild, new headgasket, worn piston rings, worn main bearings but that is the pessimist in me!

Also worth mentioning the oil cooler there could be coolant loss through that, but would show in the oil probably.

My last 944 always put out a lot of white smoke on start up but lost no coolant or oil never understood that!

Go on post the price ;-)

 

[Bloooor]

Haha i don't know how posting the price will help me resolve this issue..

I have sent Richard a emssage asking if there has been any heaqdwork done previous on the car and will go from there.

Can anyone recommend a good company/garage in the NorthWest or surrounding (willing to travel if they are well known and have good reviews) just to see what kind of costs i', looking at or atleast look at getting it checked in to see if we can find the problem.

Thanks for all the help so far, you guys are great!

Adam

 

[vitesse]

Try John & Danny at Unit 11 ,Warrington-they do engine rebuilds a lot of 964 engines but also the older cars & are very sensibly priced -also they don't just spend your money for you.

 

[DC911SC]

ORIGINAL: Bloooor

Haha i don't know how posting the price will help me resolve this issue..

I have sent Richard a emssage asking if there has been any heaqdwork done previous on the car and will go from there.

Can anyone recommend a good company/garage in the NorthWest or surrounding (willing to travel if they are well known and have good reviews) just to see what kind of costs i', looking at or atleast look at getting it checked in to see if we can find the problem.

Thanks for all the help so far, you guys are great!

Adam

Well very simple, if you are paying say £1k for it then fair enought, but if you are paying £5k then there might be better mechanical examples about.

As far as I know you havent bought the car yet and want advice on a fix, repair cost v value is surely a big consideration?!

A lot of us have been there and done that and it can mount up very quickly, there are so many "while you are in there" jobs that you could be looking at 1-2k easy on repairs straight up, cheapest head gasket job i've heard is about £600 and with the oil consumption it obviously needs other work. Bringing me back full circle to whether it is worth it or not.........

ps if you have the time and space it is a pretty straight forward job to do the headgasket etc I did my first one in the carpark outside my flat! (that sounds wrong!)

 

[Bloooor]

Thanks Vitesse, not too far from me at all

I've bought the car but only put down a deposit so far, the winky face is what made me think you just wanted bragging rights as opposed to wanting to help lol We have agreed on £2750.

details about the car (from current owner and on the ebay listing):

- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111158497426?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

from emails: clutch feels fine and long runs with no degradation of performance but no history of it being replaced, was MOT'd in May, (underside is spotless of rust as well as sills and only surface rust when looking down the vents in the door pillars) I can't find anymore info he has sent me about the mechanical side of things, is there anything major i should really check before picking up the car?

if i do find anything that is major i will totally take it on the chin (as long as the shell is as good as he says, that's the base i have been looking for to build on, i wouldn't mind rebuilding another engine to go and have it as a restoration project.

 

[DC911SC]

haha no worries was genuinely wondering from a viability point of view.

Really nice car I'd be surprised if someone here doesn't know it.

At that price (which I think is very fair) I dont think you can go far wrong and its had all the right work done.

If as you say you can take some engine work on the chin then go for it.

Back on the coolant issue there is a test most garages can do to check for combustion fumes in the coolant, obviously doesn't show if there is coolant going the other way but is a start. Also don't use mayonaise in the oil cap as a true guide for hg issues as these cars a prone to condensation build up there naturally.

Oil consumption wise would be worth trying a different oil depending what is currently in the car, It might be running something a bit thin lets us know whats in it and someone will chip in.

 

[DC911SC]

ps just be careful with the sills as to what surface rust is, they rust from the inside out so the outer stone guard can look ok and its a mess inside. If its good some choice rust inhibitor would sort it out - have a google.

 

[DC911SC]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1984-PORSCHE-944-LUX-WHITE-with-Private-plate-LXI-944-/370527422167

 

[david924s]

Just reading the advert would worry me and at £2750 it sounds expensive for a car with the number of problems mentioned plus any extras, there are some good early cars to be had for that sort of money indeed one on this forum for £2.5K with what looks like a great record. Just be careful if you haven't paid in full yet when you go to collect like has been said check for rust not just the sills but around the rear suspension points and fuel tank and be careful to check the electrics he says don't work all the time, bad earths and poor DIY wiring can be a real pain to sort out.

 

[Bloooor]

Thanks Strath, going form what he has said and i know i'm kind of shooting myself in the foot by not viewing it, i thought the price was fair too. The ebay link from 2011 is a little disconcerting having only reached £959 and not getting near the reserve, i'm hoping it didn't sell for other reasons such as the listing ending at the wrong time or recession etc

He said the surface rust good only be seen from inside the vent holes in the door pillars (so looking down with his phone torch + camera and taking pics)

conflicting posts, always makes me worry.. Do you think it's worth a 7 hour round trip visit to check the sills/underneath and to try and find every problem/fault with the car? (This isn't sarcasm, i'm genuinely annoyed i can't seem to find all these amazing examples for £2500 that are pre 1985 square dash, white with pinstripe interior) i've been searching for months and not seen a single one) I got close with a bronze 1985 but this had the cream interior and needed all the belts/tensioner doing and he wanted £2500.

Do you have a link David to the car for sale? I hope my luck isn't bad, like is said before i'm almost fed up of looking now for the perfect unmolested, enthusiast owned car i've been dreaming of.. I would just really like a good bass/shell to work from and don't mind spending the extra money to get her back to former glory

Sorry to sound frustrated but as you can hopefully understand, i just want to find the right car 944 for me

Thanks for you time,
Adam

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Hi Adam,

You're correct that the perfect car isn't likely to be out there, and all old 944s will need some attention. Mechanically it's no different to any other old car: do your checks and budget for the unexpected. Some bills can be large, clutch for example, but most jobs on a 944 are straightforward and shouldn't cost more than other comparable cars.

Bodywork is a minefield of advice. Some people are happy to DIY, others drive scruffy examples in to the ground, yet more want a perfect concours-standard all the time. 944s rust less than anything else from the period, but aren't immune and if let go restoration/repair is going to cost the same as with any other car..

You don't need to travel to see the sills if he's taken pictures, just get them sent to you and post them here. I'd say that a perfect sill with a lovely layer of protection is unlikely, but buy it immediately. A little surface corrosion inside the sill is expected, and with regular treatment might not need attention for years. If there's a clear view of the road through the sills run away fast. The rear suspension mounting points are the weak area, that's where mine failed, but pictures of the condition of the sills, wings and general bodywork will give a guide as to how solid the underneath might be before you travel.

The problem with bodywork is that you run the risk of buying something that needs a bit of work, and it ends up a decision to do the whole car. Mine needed small areas on the 4 wings and one sill repairing, but by the time you're painting 4 wings and the sills you might as well do the whole car so it matches. [&:]

 

[DC911SC]

Adam, hang in there I know you've been looking for a while and it can get frustrating.

the 944 must have had work done on the sills as I noticed on another pic they are pretty bubbled (google the reg).

I doubt it would have gone for the £900 odd but is a worry it didn't go higher.

Just remember in photos...... that what looks amzing photographed from 10 feet is good, what looks good is ok and what looks ok from 10 feet is pretty rough!

I personally would view it before parting with any money. I live in Stirling and put a deposit on a oval dash 944 via gumtree of £200 for the guy to hold it for a week in Devon. Drove through the night got there and it was a lemon - had a one way car rental as well, total shambles. Walked away and lost my money, was worth it though as I ended up getting a much better car with Fuchs!

If you view it and its obviously not as described you should be able to get your deposit back.