timhum2002
New member
Why does the powerkit take 6-10k miles to 'bed in'? Is this only on a new engine that needs to run in anyway or does it apply to the kit retro fitted to an older car?
thanks
thanks
X51 Powerkit
- Thread starter timhum2002
- Start date
You are actually replacing a fair chunk of the engine with the powere upgrade, so there new parts have to bed in just like any new engine parts. So their is clearly a bedding in distance even for an upgrade post new.
Also if you are over 18k miles they repalce even more of the engine.....
Bear in mind that the upgraded engine is now at over 100bhp/litre for a normally aspirated engine - which means its a highly stressed engine, so parts will be made stronger and to tighter tollerances. increasing the time required to bed in proprely.
Before some one shouts the Ferarri thing, yes they get 116 bhp/liter but it needs far more attention than the Porsche - so the extra durability has had to be engineered in.
The paperwork I got with mine said running in for the Powerkit was only 500 miles, after that point treat as normal. But it did also state that full power would not be developed for 6 -10k miles. this seems to have been bourne out as my car got noticably quicker at 6k miles and again at 8k miles.
Interestingly talking to a couple of OPC people, they seem to indicate the stock C2/4 S doesnt' realise its full figures until approx 12k miles where they say you "get an extra kick"
So it all seems to come down to running in periods on highly stressed engines
Look at this months GT Porsche magazine where they figure C4S and C2S Powerkits one at 2-3k miles which ran much slower and another at 8k miles which ran close to the manufacturers claims.
Also if you are over 18k miles they repalce even more of the engine.....
Bear in mind that the upgraded engine is now at over 100bhp/litre for a normally aspirated engine - which means its a highly stressed engine, so parts will be made stronger and to tighter tollerances. increasing the time required to bed in proprely.
Before some one shouts the Ferarri thing, yes they get 116 bhp/liter but it needs far more attention than the Porsche - so the extra durability has had to be engineered in.
The paperwork I got with mine said running in for the Powerkit was only 500 miles, after that point treat as normal. But it did also state that full power would not be developed for 6 -10k miles. this seems to have been bourne out as my car got noticably quicker at 6k miles and again at 8k miles.
Interestingly talking to a couple of OPC people, they seem to indicate the stock C2/4 S doesnt' realise its full figures until approx 12k miles where they say you "get an extra kick"
So it all seems to come down to running in periods on highly stressed engines
Look at this months GT Porsche magazine where they figure C4S and C2S Powerkits one at 2-3k miles which ran much slower and another at 8k miles which ran close to the manufacturers claims.
Ok, so whats the crack with the Powerkit? When I ordered my 997 C4S I looked at this option and it seems quite expensive? I didn't opt for it in the end and just took the stock engine.
I haven't done any research yet, other to find out that there are a number of chip options in the aftermarket and even a couple of Supercharger options too.
The chip seems to be a cheap way of adding a simular amount of HP, but the Supercharger (if i remember correctly) cost a simular amount to the Powerkit whilst offering a vast increase in power / tourqe??
I understand that both options would cause the warranty to be invalidated! So maybe thats the reason for the Powerkit.
All I know is that I will be looking in the not too distant future so any help / info would be more than welcome.
I haven't done any research yet, other to find out that there are a number of chip options in the aftermarket and even a couple of Supercharger options too.
The chip seems to be a cheap way of adding a simular amount of HP, but the Supercharger (if i remember correctly) cost a simular amount to the Powerkit whilst offering a vast increase in power / tourqe??
I understand that both options would cause the warranty to be invalidated! So maybe thats the reason for the Powerkit.
All I know is that I will be looking in the not too distant future so any help / info would be more than welcome.
sawood12
New member
The X51 is so much more than a simple ECU re-programme. I believe it consists of an upgraded inlet and exhaust manifold and a new cam? Obviously the ECU will be reprogrammed as well to get the best out of all the new kit. This kit basically allows more air to flow through the engine. I've not driven one but I guess the modest headline power and torque increases are deceiving so this is not an upgrade for the big numbers glory seekers. I'd expect the whole shape of the torque and power curve will be changed giving you more area under the curve which basically translates into more power and torque more of the time and a much more responsive engine. Peak HP and torque numbers are pretty meaningless really. The kit also includes the PSE as well. It is expensive compared with a simple ECU re-programme because you are changing actual hardware whereas a simple ECU-reprogramme is not.
I'm surprised that it is such an expensive upgrade from new, fair enough if you get it retrofitted I can understand it, but in theory from new it should just cost the difference in the parts costs as it doesn't effect the engine build procedure, you are simply substituting some parts. So there is obviously a pretty meaty premium in it for Porsche.
I'm surprised that it is such an expensive upgrade from new, fair enough if you get it retrofitted I can understand it, but in theory from new it should just cost the difference in the parts costs as it doesn't effect the engine build procedure, you are simply substituting some parts. So there is obviously a pretty meaty premium in it for Porsche.
Has anyone looked at this: http://www.tpcracing.us/products/
The *NEW* 997 Supercharger Kit yields an impressive 503 H.P. and 415lbs./ft. torque
The *NEW* 997 Supercharger Kit yields an impressive 503 H.P. and 415lbs./ft. torque
The x51 Powerkit is a replacement of significant bits of the engine, incluidng a lovelly peice of Carbon fiber, plus Sports Exhaust.
As always improvements on normallly aspirated engines without supercharging or turbo's are hard won.
The kit adds 26hp and about 10lbft torque minimum. Leaving the engine output at a minimum of 381 HP.
Its expensive because a) your changing a lot of real bits b) There is a fair bit of manual labour in these changes and c) Porsche can get away with it, oh and d) you keep your warranty.
The low down - from new its a transformation, Porsche would have you believe that to start with they only use the engines dynoing the top 10% power for the Powerkit, hence the at least 381bhp from new (you'll have to decide yourself if you believe this or not)
According to Porsche it knocks 1 second off the 0-100 time, down to 9.7/9.8 secs for one driver and half a tank of fuel, this is 996 GT3/Turbo Performance. A GT Porsche article last July-ish figured 997's turbo, GT3, GT3 RS and Powekit - absolute figures were differnet but the long and the short of it is the Powerkit kept up with the GT3 until about 110 mph (shorter gearing plays a factor here). So on a real road at least there would be little to choose between the GT3/Powerkit.
The carbon bits and sports exhaust make a fabulous noise, with pops and spits on the over run. Very nice
The reality to drive is it FEELS really fast and very diffreent to the stock C2S/C4S irrespective of what the figures actually are. In man repsects its like a mini turbo with a solid wall or Torque from 3k revs to 7450 (you get another 250 rpm from the changes before the rev limiter) it feels like it pulls evenly all the way through, giving it real mid range punch and that feeling fo real speed.
DMS Chip gets you about 20 - 25hp on a remap. Bascally taking advantage of the better Fuel available in Europe while Porsche have to allow the car to deal with poor fuel in other markets on the same chip. DMS do not claim the same kind of perfromance improvements in the 0-60 or 0-100 times but did suggest better in gear times
So to me, as I was going fro PSE any way - the Powerkit was too much temptation. A bit of a Q car and something slightly unique - Add the Possibility of DMS chipping it after warranty is up and thats 45 - 50hp up on the stock car (C2S) and a lot more in gear punch.
For resale/service the chip can be removed easilly. And your not faced with questions over reliability/damage from custom Supercharge/Turbo installs.
As always improvements on normallly aspirated engines without supercharging or turbo's are hard won.
The kit adds 26hp and about 10lbft torque minimum. Leaving the engine output at a minimum of 381 HP.
Its expensive because a) your changing a lot of real bits b) There is a fair bit of manual labour in these changes and c) Porsche can get away with it, oh and d) you keep your warranty.
The low down - from new its a transformation, Porsche would have you believe that to start with they only use the engines dynoing the top 10% power for the Powerkit, hence the at least 381bhp from new (you'll have to decide yourself if you believe this or not)
According to Porsche it knocks 1 second off the 0-100 time, down to 9.7/9.8 secs for one driver and half a tank of fuel, this is 996 GT3/Turbo Performance. A GT Porsche article last July-ish figured 997's turbo, GT3, GT3 RS and Powekit - absolute figures were differnet but the long and the short of it is the Powerkit kept up with the GT3 until about 110 mph (shorter gearing plays a factor here). So on a real road at least there would be little to choose between the GT3/Powerkit.
The carbon bits and sports exhaust make a fabulous noise, with pops and spits on the over run. Very nice
The reality to drive is it FEELS really fast and very diffreent to the stock C2S/C4S irrespective of what the figures actually are. In man repsects its like a mini turbo with a solid wall or Torque from 3k revs to 7450 (you get another 250 rpm from the changes before the rev limiter) it feels like it pulls evenly all the way through, giving it real mid range punch and that feeling fo real speed.
DMS Chip gets you about 20 - 25hp on a remap. Bascally taking advantage of the better Fuel available in Europe while Porsche have to allow the car to deal with poor fuel in other markets on the same chip. DMS do not claim the same kind of perfromance improvements in the 0-60 or 0-100 times but did suggest better in gear times
So to me, as I was going fro PSE any way - the Powerkit was too much temptation. A bit of a Q car and something slightly unique - Add the Possibility of DMS chipping it after warranty is up and thats 45 - 50hp up on the stock car (C2S) and a lot more in gear punch.
For resale/service the chip can be removed easilly. And your not faced with questions over reliability/damage from custom Supercharge/Turbo installs.
timhum2002
New member
Thanks for all these opinions but I still don't understand and nobody has explained why there is supposedly an extra kick in power at 6k/8k/12k miles.Honda afterall produce cars generating 100+bhp per litre straight out of the box without any of these conditions. Is there some sort of delay on the engine developing full power built into the electronics or is a physchological effect arising from having spent £8k on 28 bhp?
Timhum,
Good question - I believe it basically come down to mechanicaly bedding in. All cars do this, I have had several new cars over the years from Porsche, Nissan and BMW and they all go through this process and its quite noticable.
Modern cars are made to such tollreances now that less than a thousandth of an inch on metal thickness can cause more friction, reducing the rate at which the car revs and thefore the time until you access full power. impacting performance.
I think this is a case also of Porsche being more honest than most manufacturers -they are the only ones that Dyno their engines and insist that they produce at least the quoted power. Most manufacturers work within a 10% or 15% quoted margin, BMW used to be the worst for this, quoting high outputs that when dynoed near new they fell well short of. ie a claimed 400hp could mean you get an engine with an actual 340-360hp with a hope that when they run in it'll get closer to 400hp
As the parts wear in slightly and lossen up (again we're talking tiny amounts here) the engines rev more freely and generate more power - again all engines do this.
So Porsche quote a power of at least X and say it takes several thousand miles before producing full power. I'd be dissapointed if mine now wasn't over the 381hp quoted - I know it'll be at least 381bhp, many other manufacturers won't reach the quoted power even when fully run in.
Good question - I believe it basically come down to mechanicaly bedding in. All cars do this, I have had several new cars over the years from Porsche, Nissan and BMW and they all go through this process and its quite noticable.
Modern cars are made to such tollreances now that less than a thousandth of an inch on metal thickness can cause more friction, reducing the rate at which the car revs and thefore the time until you access full power. impacting performance.
I think this is a case also of Porsche being more honest than most manufacturers -they are the only ones that Dyno their engines and insist that they produce at least the quoted power. Most manufacturers work within a 10% or 15% quoted margin, BMW used to be the worst for this, quoting high outputs that when dynoed near new they fell well short of. ie a claimed 400hp could mean you get an engine with an actual 340-360hp with a hope that when they run in it'll get closer to 400hp
As the parts wear in slightly and lossen up (again we're talking tiny amounts here) the engines rev more freely and generate more power - again all engines do this.
So Porsche quote a power of at least X and say it takes several thousand miles before producing full power. I'd be dissapointed if mine now wasn't over the 381hp quoted - I know it'll be at least 381bhp, many other manufacturers won't reach the quoted power even when fully run in.
Seems to vary by OPC but typically a bit more than the price quote for new - you'll have to speak to them direct to get a quote but try several different OPC to get a best price. Some will do it for close on the book price for new but don't want to be identified as doing it for below Porsche UK's desired rate - as such you won't get a price online
You could also try mailing direct some one who has had it retro fitted - try YvesD, he was a champion for retrofitted x51's for a while.
It also depends upon mileage and condition of several parts - if your over 18k miles there are additional parts that need changing and therfore more cost
In terms of Insurance, the "quoted" improvement is less than 10% power so a number of companies won't ask for a premium especially as it is OPC fitted and not after market. I am with Performance Marque and had no increase in premium for the X51[
]So your answer on insurance is its quite easy to get, in particluar I guess because there are no external changes to identify the upgrade it would do any more to attract "tea leaves" beoynd having a 911 already.
ORIGINAL: garyw
Now ask him if he still has the car....[8|] [8|][
gary
Cruel but fair[:-]
A better question to ask is does he regret selling it and would he pay for the x51 upgrade again.[
]I would if I was keeping the car for a while but if its just a year or so, you need to think of resale and not put options on the car as you never get the return on them. Having siad that I don't think I could live without the serious extra grunt and nosie the x51 gives you - i'd spend the whole time wishing I'd bought the upgrade.
garyw
Moderator
ORIGINAL: okellyt
Cruel but fair[:-]
A better question to ask is does he regret selling it and would he pay for the x51 upgrade again.[
You wouldn't expect any less of me
True, I think its a fair comment that YvesD has already mentioned how much he is missing the car...and Yes, I think he would do it again.. I wouldn't blame him either..
YvesD, ????
garyw
YvesD
New member
ORIGINAL: garyw
ORIGINAL: okellyt
Cruel but fair[:-]
A better question to ask is does he regret selling it and would he pay for the x51 upgrade again.[
You wouldn't expect any less of me
True, I think its a fair comment that YvesD has already mentioned how much he is missing the car...and Yes, I think he would do it again.. I wouldn't blame him either..
YvesD, ????
garyw
Guys,
The only reason I sold the car was that I got the jitters last summer and thought ( perhaps wrongly with hindsight ) that business was about to collapse and that I would need the cash ( no finance on car ) to live on whilst sorting things out. It didnt happen, at least not 7 months later anyway.
Last year was an odd one all round for me looking back.
Followed a couple of 911's around town today and was still pining for my lost love.
Wont make the same mistake again, when I can get back behind the wheel of 998 or whatever it is, it will be for keeps.
Yves
Yves
Fully appreciate and sympathise with your position last year - been there before and done the same thing for same reasons. As I co own a small company, I am always exposed in the same way to market conditions, can't say I haven't been worried by the credit squeeze and its wider implicaitosn for the whole of the UK Plc and everyones jobs.
The question that prompted me was given we have learn't that with current Porsche supply vs Demand, extra's on a model (bar perhaps sat Nav) add zero value to trade in the minute you drive off the forecort would we buy the x51 kit again.
I guess that if I knew I would only have the car for 6 months from new, now I'd buy a stock 997S however that would be head over heart and I would heartilly regret not having several options the x51 being one of them. to the point it might ruin my enjoyment of the car.
If I was buying again for a longer term car, I'd have the x51 upgrade or equivalent every time or if I could find the extra 20+k I'd probably buy the turbo, with lots of extra's.
Yves - would you?
Fully appreciate and sympathise with your position last year - been there before and done the same thing for same reasons. As I co own a small company, I am always exposed in the same way to market conditions, can't say I haven't been worried by the credit squeeze and its wider implicaitosn for the whole of the UK Plc and everyones jobs.
The question that prompted me was given we have learn't that with current Porsche supply vs Demand, extra's on a model (bar perhaps sat Nav) add zero value to trade in the minute you drive off the forecort would we buy the x51 kit again.
I guess that if I knew I would only have the car for 6 months from new, now I'd buy a stock 997S however that would be head over heart and I would heartilly regret not having several options the x51 being one of them. to the point it might ruin my enjoyment of the car.
If I was buying again for a longer term car, I'd have the x51 upgrade or equivalent every time or if I could find the extra 20+k I'd probably buy the turbo, with lots of extra's.
Yves - would you?
sawood12
New member
Speaking as a future owner of a used 997 (some day) I think that the X51 will be an option that will command a bit of a premium - it may not get you your money back if you specc'd it from new or retrofitted it, but it will become a sought after feature like LSD's on 944's and 968's for example. Things like Sat Nav will not be a major consideration as technology moves on and there are limitations to how long the in-dash system can be updated to keep up with the introductions of new technologies. Also PCCB will be a big turn off unless the cost of the discs and pads drops significantly.
Don't forget - 997's will not hold their value as well as previous Porsche models - there is alot more competition around these days (R8 for example) and the cars have been built in much larger numbers diluting the exclusiveness of the brand - though I think the 997 will fare better than the 996 as from all accounts it is a return to the more raw feeling of the older models whereas the 996, though a very competent car, was a bit soft.
Don't forget - 997's will not hold their value as well as previous Porsche models - there is alot more competition around these days (R8 for example) and the cars have been built in much larger numbers diluting the exclusiveness of the brand - though I think the 997 will fare better than the 996 as from all accounts it is a return to the more raw feeling of the older models whereas the 996, though a very competent car, was a bit soft.
Ah well here's where we get to the facelift.
the X51 seems to command a premium at the moment as its popular, Porsche fitted and warranted and doesn't effect your insurance. Subject to the relatively poor resale values for the 997 anyway.
However if rumours are true the facelifted 997S will have 380bhp as standard with no real price increase. At this point the 2nd hand prices for the C2/4S pre facelift fall away badly and the Powerkit becomes an expensive way of keeping the same power levels as the facelifted 997S (C2/C4)
Interestingly one of the sales people at my OPC was trying to say that even with a power increase the new model will not be as fast as the old Powerkit (in terms of acceleration gains). Believe it or not as you will
So basically the resale on the Powerkit will only do well if
a) the Powerhike promised in the facelift is not as large/does not provide the acceleration gains or
b) the new car has some serious flaw like being very ugly.
At this point a facelift 997S with Powerkit would loom good though (405hp anyone)
So I should save my pennies and take the trade in hit for my Powerkit 997S pre facelift - or wait until the warranty is up and spend 1k (rather a lot less than option a) and get a DMS Chip bringing mine upto "Over 400HP"
Hmm, thousands down the toilet or a cheap chip that'll still embarrass the new model. Wonder what I'll do then
Last point - if they do run out the 3.6 litre engine for the Turbo for something less reliable, i might just buy a 2-3yr old and chip it to hell
the X51 seems to command a premium at the moment as its popular, Porsche fitted and warranted and doesn't effect your insurance. Subject to the relatively poor resale values for the 997 anyway.
However if rumours are true the facelifted 997S will have 380bhp as standard with no real price increase. At this point the 2nd hand prices for the C2/4S pre facelift fall away badly and the Powerkit becomes an expensive way of keeping the same power levels as the facelifted 997S (C2/C4)
Interestingly one of the sales people at my OPC was trying to say that even with a power increase the new model will not be as fast as the old Powerkit (in terms of acceleration gains). Believe it or not as you will
So basically the resale on the Powerkit will only do well if
a) the Powerhike promised in the facelift is not as large/does not provide the acceleration gains or
b) the new car has some serious flaw like being very ugly.
At this point a facelift 997S with Powerkit would loom good though (405hp anyone)
So I should save my pennies and take the trade in hit for my Powerkit 997S pre facelift - or wait until the warranty is up and spend 1k (rather a lot less than option a) and get a DMS Chip bringing mine upto "Over 400HP"
Hmm, thousands down the toilet or a cheap chip that'll still embarrass the new model. Wonder what I'll do then
Last point - if they do run out the 3.6 litre engine for the Turbo for something less reliable, i might just buy a 2-3yr old and chip it to hell
Posts made and opinions expressed are those of the individual forum members
Use of the Forum is subject to the Terms and Conditions
