Your project car might get CRUSHED!!!

[Indi9xx]

DVLA and NCP services are trying to bring in a new law to allow them to enter private land, to clamp, tow and crush cars which are not either on a SORN declaration or currently showing a current tax disk. They say its all about punishing people who drive cars without road tax, but it will mean if you forget to renew the SORN on that Porsche project you may have in your back garden, they will have the power to come and take it away. Of course this has nothing to with scrap metal currently being worth £100 per ton as a car or £150 - £200 per ton as a car converted into a crushed cube on the scrap metal market! Here is the cut and paste from the auto express article talking about it.... ------START QUOTE New driveway blitz on untaxed cars

Untaxed cars could be removed from owners´ driveways and crushed under
proposed new rules.

Sweeping powers for the DVLA, which would let its staff enter private land,
could affect the two million-plus vehicles sporting out-of-date discs.

At present, the Government can only intervene if a car is parked on a
public road. Commercial contractor NCP Services, which already has an
agreement with the licensing authority to tow and destroy illegal motors,
is proposing the changes. It´s currently in discussion with the DVLA and
Department for Transport. If successful, the new rules will allow its
employees on to your property to clamp, remove or scrap your motor.

An NCP Services spokesman said: "We want access to private property to
remove cars being driven without tax. At present, we know where they are
but can´t get to them."

A DVLA spokeswoman said that law-abiding motorists had nothing to fear: "If
you´ve purchased your road fund licence or correctly applied for the
Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN), there won´t be a problem."
------ END QUOTE
http://tinyurl.com/36rcna
First speed cameras, then smoking, now project cars.... Hmmmm... Jon Mitchell Jon Mitchell's Garage Independent Porsche Specialists Bournemouth, UK service@jmgarage.co.uk www.jmgarage.co.uk 01202 488800

 

[ians]

Interesting that it is NCP who are pushing for the rather than DVLA. Let me guess now - they get paid per vehicle they impound...?

Now if this related to uninsured vehicles on the road I would have a lot more sympathy.

 

[xenon]

Sounds like a good idea. We all have to pay road tax so why let people get away with it? Regarding project cars, all you need to do is declare it SORN, it's not much effort - they even post you a reminder and you can renew the SORN declaration online in minutes.

If it gets rid of these bloody chavs who seem to think they are above the law, bring it on.

 

[Indi9xx]

On the road is one thing.... I am all for crushing cars which are caught on the road without tax or MOT (as long as their is a reasonable grace for unusual circumstances, such as it being the day after its run out)

But a law being passed, where DVLA will give NCP a print out of all car details and addresses of cars without a SORN or TAX disk and allowing NCP to then enter your property or land to remove these vehicles and crush them, is a bit beyond reasonable.

As an example, I have 15 Porsche that I own... Not daily drivers... None of them are sales cars... Many of them I do not see for months at a time as they are in a storage unit... Keeping track of which ones are on a SORN, making sure DVLA have recieved the SORN, and therefore making sure I am within the law is a hassle in itself, but if this law comes in, and I think a car has been SORN'ed when it has not, or I have sent the SORN but DVLA have not recieved it, then NCP will have the right to come along and drag that car away and crush it.

There are so many circumstances where someone could fall foul of this law, without realising it until its too late... Laws like that are the difference between a country run for the good of its people in a decent society, into a country run to penalise its people for the slightest mistake.

I have owned cars, which to me, I would rather loose a testical than see crushed... and I am not alone on that... So a law like this is about as reasonable as a law saying that you should loose a testical just because you were unlucky... unlucky with the post office loosing a letter, unlucky because you live alone and get admitted to hospital for a couple of months, or unlucky because of any one of a number of good excuses.

Whats next? Just because a car is unroadworthy it gets towed and crushed on the spot? That may sound reasonable, until you realise that unroadworthy could mean a blown headlight bulb or a head gasket failing with plumes of smoke in front of a police car.

I would rather see a law passed where people driving cars WELL out of tax, or well out of insurance, or even well out of MOT, and where the case is blatent abuse, get put in jail as a minimum punishment.... I am all for speed cameras outside schools (rather than on the usual down hill stretch of road in the middle of nowhere in a 40 which would normally be a 60)... But this law sucks.

ohhhh rant over! )

 

[Michael Downing]

This is a classic example of the type of laws that we have seen over the last decade.

Yes, if there is an untaxed uninsured un-MOT'd death trap being driving around dangerously then I am quite happy for it to be taken away and crushed. I am also quite happy for the authorities to have the powers that they need in order to enforce this - I would not want irresponsible idiots like this to get away with it provided they had a driveway.

However, it is another thing to draft a law that catches anything in sight, including cars that may simply be the subject of an administrative error - one that results in the loss a much loved project that harmed no-one.

And, of course, by allowing this to be done on the basis of database searches and subcontracting the enforcement work, you are asking for the easy pickings to be dealt with and the hard jobs to be ignored. Which means that it won't be the chavs who lose their Novas, it will be the projects that are hammered disproportionately for any admin error.

And, of course, those who object to the proposal will be painted as being in support of allowing the untaxed uninsured un-MOT'd death traps to be driving around dangerously.....

Just consider .... is confiscation and destruction a reasonable and proportionate response to a failure to fill in the right form at the right time in all cases?

 

[sawood12]

This is an absolute discrace. This excuse that people use of "if you've got nothing to hide then why should you object" is just missing the point. How dare any government arm think it is alright to come onto your private property to confiscate your own property! Yes you should sign a SORN and yes if it is found on the road then fair enough - but if it is on your drive or on private land then tough, if they really want to get you they should invest the time and effort to investigate you and get hard and fast evidence that the car does find its way onto the road. It is not against the law to have a car un-taxed on private land. Until they change that law then this is just unacceptable.

This is just getting silly now. I'd like to be treated like an adult and given the opportunity to do something wrong before being punished for it - i.e. taking responsibility for my own actions. This is getting a bit like that film (can't remember its title) where people are punished for crimes they have not committed yet.

 

[Guest]

This is interesting. Two weeks ago, on a road by my house in Maidenhead, I saw two cars clamped with DVLA stickers on the clamps. I never saw this before. Not sure if the cars were without tax but they were sitting there for a while but are owned by a guy down the road. Have they already started.....?

 

[xenon]

Well, there's an over-reaction if ever I saw one.

This law is clearly designed to target drivers who drive untaxed cars but are almost impossible to catch because, unless you get them red-handed, their car is immediately on private land as soon as they get home.

You don't honestly believe that these enforcers will goose-step on to your land in the dead of night and drag your project cars off into the night like a modern-day Gestapo?

"Just consider .... is confiscation and destruction a reasonable and proportionate response to a failure to fill in the right form at the right time in all cases?"

Of course it isn't, and they wouldn't. This would target repeat offenders, not someone who had forgotton a form.

You make it sound as if declaring a car SORN is a minefield of bureaucracy, finding the "right" form and so on. What a load of rubbish - you tick ONE box on a form (that they send you in advanace of it running out) and post it back. That's it.

If that's too difficult you can do it on-line as well.

It is clear whom this is targetted at - and it isn't you lot.

 

[wblackw9]

So what happens if you own a salvage yard, surely they are not all declared sorn!!

 

[Hilux]

There are so many circumstances where someone could fall foul of this law, without realising it until its too late... Laws like that are the difference between a country run for the good of its people in a decent society, into a country run to penalise its people for the slightest mistake.

This is a police state in all but name.

• First act they brought in was the Human Rights Act. What this means that a single persons rights take precedent over the rights of society. WRONG. Remember JFK speech "ask not what your country can do for you but ask what you can do for your country" ......... Labour have reversed this onto its head and now there is no fault by an individual, its all some one elses. When I grew up I had to look out for myself and stand on my own feet (I still do) No one was there to keep you up. If you fell they would help you to your feet but from then on it was up to you.
• Re above thats what made our society and country great, a benevolent sytem that encouraged free spirit and endeavour.
• They tell us what to put in our bins and when.
• HIPS inspectors (that no-one wants nor voted for) can come into your house and not be stopped where they look at all aspects and corners of YOUR property and determine (having paid money to do a course) what your house will be worth if the insulation has a hole in it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
• They tell us how fast to drive and where!
• If you`ve a post code you`re stuffed.
• If you havent they will get you a plot for your caravan free gratis
• If you`re a tax payer, you are b*ll*xed and fair game
• 800,000 MORE civil servants since they came to power
• 1 in 10 is a civil servant
• Civil servant managers have to justify their tenuous jobs so they add departments so as to get £150,000 salaries
• Department workers have to justify jobs so they think up schemes that no one votes for or wants
• They then create jobs so they can manage their great ideas
• For each 10 of us their is one person administering us, no wonder they can do it and are doing it!!!!!!!!!!!!
• PC is now a culture in the civil service and cannot be reversed
• Cutting down a majestic row of 100 year old horse chestnut trees in Norwich in cas someone got brained by a conker. Once they`d cut them down they couldnt show one incident where it had happened in 100 years but they were arrogant enough to do it without consultation. How green is that!!!!!!!!!!
• More managers than nurses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTFIATA
• No accountabilty for MP`s (retired to house of Lords) They can bankrupt the country but get paid for their memoirs. You and I would be in prison if it were us. Remember was it Dennis Healey had the IMF step in to save us and took over our finances (how embarrassing was that)
• Smoking banned everywhere except palaces (guess what palace the HOC is in??)
• Armed forces funding cut to ribbons but they still send them out to sustained wars and used to charge relatives to send food and clothing parcels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
• Arguing over how much to pay injured soldiers ie: as little as possible shows how disgustingly removed from reality they are.
• Immigration is the biggest demographic change in this country`s history. It WILL bankrupt the NHS and deplete housing stock for UK natives, hang on , silly me , of course its all no problem................the taxpayer with a post code can take the hit while all the immigrant and english sink estate ferral kids breed ever more ignorant and ferral children without regard for state, police, public decency etc etc
• Re above, they cut funding for the police, wont build prisons, dont care for the decent tax paying (post coded) indigenous population and established ethnic minorities (who incidentally do not want the immigration either) so we are not defended anymore
• One of the richest countries in the world and have you seen the state of the roads, verges, litter and filth we live in and among

I am so upset, I really am, I used to love this country and was proud of it (having been an Irish immigrant family`s child who experienced low level discrimination in the early 60`s)..............I fear for this country. It needs a firm hand, hard truths (that the bl**dy human rights act will not ever allow)

Dont you fell that there are shades of Stalinistic and Nazi type oppression and information gathering..............................

Debate...[]

 

[xenon]

Can't argue with any of that. One of the reasons why I'm emigrating in May.

 

[morris944s2john]

I agree too, and add to that the gradual persecution of classic car fans and all the troubles brought by the EU.

 

[random hero]

I was fined a few months back for not retaxing my car or declaring it sorn even though i had posted the form declaring it as sorn.I challenged this as i didnt think it was my fault but the dvla told me that if i hadnt recieved the conformation of sorn letter which i didnt (and didnt think anything of it) its my responsibility to contact them and make sure i have one !!!. I know someone who's job it is to tow away untaxed cars (on public roads) and impound them and usually the owner has the option of paying the fine and reclaiming the car ,so i presume this would work in much the same way ??

 

[sawood12]

This is clearly a moneymaking scheme. If a car is not taxed the DVLA know about it from their database and if the police don't happen to catch the car on the road then tough luck. Just because the evidence doesn't present itself to them on a platter is no excuse to introduce draconian measures. They just need to try harder. This is clearly a money-spinning idea from NCP and they are lobbying the govenment hard and you just know the govenment will see the £ signs and go for it. Road tax is a rediculous way of taxing motorists anyway. Now the tax on petrol is so high the government should just abolish road tax as the motorist is already paying too much on fuel. Having tax on fuel is the only fair way as it is self governing - if you drive an uneconomical car you buy more fuel therefore pay more tax, if you are a high milage driver again you buy more fuel, and if you are a high milage driver that drives an uneconomical car then you pay your fair dues in tax.

 

[944Turbo]

I got fined for not declaring Sorn, my car was parked on my Mums drive, I had the form (way early they seem to send out the reminders earlier and earlier) put it to one side for filing forgot about it - I was organising my wedding overseas at the time as well as running my own business etc. Got home from the weding to find the fine (£80) waiting for me - wrote to explain, but was told I still had to pay or fine would double. So after one letter with no reminder or warning I got a fine. If this came in they could have crushed my car. Do you trust the post office to deliver every letter? With 2 or 3 cars it is triky to keep track, and some may be overlooked.
Tony
(still reading mails if not having much time to post at the moment )

 

[Michael Downing]

ORIGINAL: xenon
Of course it isn't, and they wouldn't. This would target repeat offenders, not someone who had forgotton a form.

I really couldn't disagree with you more. First, it is not a valid defence of an unreasonable law to assert that it wouldn't be enforced in an unreasonable way.

Second, and more seriously, such promises tend to be forgotten years after the law is passed. Then, some poor DVLA official is under pressure to meet targets so he can have his pay rise, and sees a whole host of easy targets just sitting there waiting for him. The rest is predictable.

And if you don't believe me, go and read Hansard where the minister assured the House that he understood that motorways were not a reasonable place to site Gatsos and that they would not do so. Then, read the TRRL reports that show greater fatalities in roadworks that have Gatsos to protect them.

 

[Neil Haughey]

Guys we have been on the slippery slope for a verrryyy long time. Remember the anti-terrorism laws, ppl have already been detained on their way to a demonstration using the anti-terrorism laws. There was an investigation into one case which was then upheld because one of the demonstrators was carrying a knife, wtf.

The authorities just use which ever law they can to get the job done, it has always been this way just look at the steps taken to contain the miners strike in the 80's. Everyone likes to pop at the lefties but the other lot always did the same because we are all scummy commoners to those arrogant &*^$%$$^.

Next year the NIC goes up for middle earners so yes that means you and me will get shafted for more tax, perhaps not me because from 2 weeks time I am a contractor again(hahhahahha suckers,, sorry)

Does anyone trust that a private company given these powers will do anything other then stretch the law to breaking point to coin in as much money as possible?

We all like to laugh at the americans and the NRA but in all honesty they have the right idea. Laws like this would never get of the ground in a country where one house may have several guns and several ppl willing to use them.

 

[xenon]

ORIGINAL: Michael Downing
First, it is not a valid defence of an unreasonable law to assert that it wouldn't be enforced in an unreasonable way.

I'm not defending any unreasonable laws that I'm aware of so whether my "defence" is valid or otherwise is a moot point.

 

[sawood12]

I just find it completely and utterly depressing that there is no room for common sense in our society. Laws should be there as a last line not a first action. I am young enought to remember the days when if you got pulled over for doing 10 - 15 mph over the speed limit and as long as you were not driving irratically or dangerously, or you were under the influence or anything like that you could very reasonably expect to just receive a caution from PC Plod and you'd be on your way in a matter of minutes. These day's they'd have your wedding tackle on a platter and then hold the 'offence' against you for the rest of your life. It's all down to politicians setting these targets so they can quote statistics in their speeches. I mean is it really common sense to set targets as to how many speeders you are going to catch that month? How do you know there are going to be any speeders at all let alone enough to meet your targets? And where did this notion come that you have to catch anyone at any time that is breaking a lay somewhere? If you're having a bit of fun on the motorway at 3am with no-one esle around and you're not harming anyone else then so what?

 

[Michael Downing]

ORIGINAL: xenon
I'm not defending any unreasonable laws that I'm aware of so whether my "defence" is valid or otherwise is a moot point.

My point, which could probably be made in a more clear manner, is that when a new law is proposed and it is pointed out that the law is easily capable of catching many more people than is intended, it is not reasonable to defend the proposal by assuring the dissenters that the law will only be applied against those who really deserve punishment.

The point is that if a law catches people who it was not intended to catch, there is clearly a problem with the drafting of the law. The solution to that is to redraft the law, not to leave it to the discretion of those who enforce it. The reason we need to be alert is that we have repeatedly seen laws being passed that are simply draconian, but justified in exactly this way. As time passes, the justification is forgotten and the bobby on the street is faced with what appears to be an illegal act; what can he do? It is not for him to make the policy decision; that was Parliament's job.

Take the argument to it's absurd conclusion; why not pass a law saying that any officer of the state can impound and crush any vehicle whenever they wish. Obviously, this would only be applied to vehicles that were being driven badly or which contained terrorists; reasonable drivers need have nothing to fear since it would not be used against them. And it needs to be any officer of the state; there might not be a police officer nearby, so the Council receptionist will have to do. And the vehicles need to be crushed; if they are simply taken away, and are therefore available for the owner to recover, that will trigger lots of court proceedings as the owner tries to get it back. As we all know, legal action is expensive so that would be terribly inefficient, placing demands on the public purse and clogging the courts with cases that delay more important work.

Happy now? Every argument that I used in support of that proposed law is one that we have seen trotted out overr the last ten years.

So let's go for it ..... why would you resist it? Do you really think that terrorists should be able to drive around dangerously with impunity?

Obviously, I am not equating the actual proposal with such an oppresive law, nor am I suggesting that the latter would ever be seriously proposed. But by reductio ad absurdum, we see that the justification for the law which is being proposed is entirely untenable.