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422BHP from 944 Turbo - discuss

ORIGINAL: John Sims

When you consider that the DPW/Wayne route was £1000/1200 (dependent on how you calculated it) for 30-50 bhp,

Something worth bearing in mind is that a TiAL 38mm wastegate can be had for around $300. OK, you need flanges to make it fit but the whole thing can be yours for around £300 and you still have your old one to sell to someone who is happy to stay original but has a cracked one (I know of 3 like that so far).

I have always considered the 'DPW' to be over priced at £400 exchange.
 
Fen, I can't believe you are serious

The Tial like the original is a simple single port (extremely difficult and time consuming to adjust). You have to mess around with adapters which cost a lot. It offers little advantage over the std wastegate

The DualPortWastegate is a simple elegant easy to adjust design and it is $399 from Lindsey (VAT, shipping,duty apply to both)
 
ORIGINAL: hawkhead

Fen, I can't believe you are serious

The Tial like the original is a simple single port (extremely difficult and time consuming to adjust). You have to mess around with adapters which cost a lot. It offers little advantage over the std wastegate

The DualPortWastegate is a simple elegant easy to adjust design and it is $399 from Lindsey (VAT, shipping,duty apply to both)

Alsolute nonense. The TiAL supports exactly the same boost controller functionality as the LR wastegate it just uses the other port for connection.

The adapter kit is available off the shelf - in fact there were 2 seasonal discounts for the WG and the adapter plate on Rennlist over Christmas at around $300 each.

TiAL's have been used on 962 race cars plus many 930's etc., to suggest that they are in any way close to the diabolical effort Porsche used as standard is ridiculous. There is no way I would have fitted one if they had been little better than standard.

Also, as i mentioned above I know of 3 people with cracked standard wastegate housings (Eddie Buckley, the friend who now owns my old 220 Turbo and a guy posting on Tiutanic this week). I realise that the ones converted are crack tested before acceptance as a good core, but I still consider the stock wategate housing as sub standard.
 
ORIGINAL: Diver944

I think the standard gearing hits the redline in 5th at true 171mph (As reported from a dyno test), but with 422bhp you would get there pretty quick - if the tyres were still in one piece

And there is always the option of bumping up the rev limit a bit, though how far you would want to go with the sort of loads you would be generating is debatable,

Tony [:D][:D]

(its another good reason for keeping my car for a few more years though!)
 
Fen, apologies the Tial is a Dual port design, I was thrown by this on the Tial website

"TiAL wastegates are not adjustable. To change the boost pressure at which the valve opens requires changing the spring within the wastegate"
 
No probs - I figured you must be, they are a quality piece of kit. Having spent £lots on a 46mm one I have to believe that!

I've sen that before an thought that's a weird statement since I've read lots on Rennlist about the subtle differences between fitting boost controllers to the two.
 
Well that's answered a question that has long been in the back of my mind. I always thought the Tial was single port and not adjustable, so had wondered why you had it fitted Fen.

Slim - I think the hope of achieving much over 300bhp with just the Guru kit may be a bit optimistic, but it all depends how strong your wastegate is. My very weak wastegate and Guru kit measured at 287bhp but the boost dropped off violently at over 4000rpm. It is now shimmed even further and I have an accurate boost gauge showing that I hold 15psi (1.05bar) up to 5500rpm. I will get back to the dyno soon and maybe it will just creep over 300, but I would not put moeny on it
 
ORIGINAL: Diver944

Slim - I think the hope of achieving much over 300bhp with just the Guru kit may be a bit optimistic, but it all depends how strong your wastegate is. My very weak wastegate and Guru kit measured at 287bhp but the boost dropped off violently at over 4000rpm. It is now shimmed even further and I have an accurate boost gauge showing that I hold 15psi (1.05bar) up to 5500rpm. I will get back to the dyno soon and maybe it will just creep over 300, but I would not put moeny on it

I have the v9 chips so will be looking at 18psi. I have an accuboost "thingy" doesnt it hold the boost till the pre set amount? I hope to get clost to 300 maybe with a deCAT and exhaust and DPwastegate. Then its the 55lb injectors. But thats it, someone stop me if i ever EVER mention >350bhp EVER, i give you permission to steal the keys for my car.
 
The adapter kit is available off the shelf - in fact there were 2 seasonal discounts for the WG and the adapter plate on Rennlist over Christmas at around $300 each.

Damn I wish I'd seen that, and fully understood what a Tial was as I would have been very tempted. At the current exchange rate I could have had a proper wastegate for well under £200 and possibly sold my old one too. I am lucky in that my brother in law is in the USAF and can buy me these toys without incurring the VAT and customs issue [:D]

If only I had taken advatage of this when he was stationed here as then I wouldnt even have to pay overseas shipping [8|]
 
Slim, ahhhhh yes with a DPW I would think you could break 300 as it can hold the boost to the redline.

At 18psi I would think you will go some way beyond that as well. I personally would be a bit worried about that much boost with standard injectors, head gasket, and intercooler though (but if yours is still ok in six months I'll turn mine up too [:D] )
 
It was MySwiss and SFR that were doing the deal. There was some suggestion it might go permanent so maybe worth a check. It didn't include boost controller tho...
 
ORIGINAL: Diver944

Slim, ahhhhh yes with a DPW I would think you could break 300 as it can hold the boost to the redline.

At 18psi I would think you will go some way beyond that as well. I personally would be a bit worried about that much boost with standard injectors, head gasket, and intercooler though (but if yours is still ok in six months I'll turn mine up too [:D] )

With the standars AFM 18psi isnt a problem because it restrict the flow at high rpm keeps everything in check. but 18psi at 3500rpm should give geat mid range torque.
If i change over to a MAP then i would have to get the 55lb injectors to prevent lean mix and keep the power coming.

Head gasket, not sure about, considering my car will only be doing 6-7k a year then it might not be a problem.

The intercooler is vey very efficient, only realy have to upgrade it when you are getting close to 400bhp!! As always mid if you upgrade the IC then everything runs a tiny bit colder and less stress put on the engine (always a good thing) But below 350bhp its only good for about 10bhp at most.

Spool up is what i want to target after this, so it will be new exhaust and CAT bypass pipe next(well June [:eek:])

I will bypass the CV just bung up the holes, i have read the post about it and no way am i taking off the Inlet Mainfold just to remove 1lb of weight. What size/type of tube should i buy to do this?
Cheers
 
ORIGINAL: Fen

It was MySwiss and SFR that were doing the deal

Wow - I've just been reading their posts. Both undercutting eachother [:D] until it is down to $300 including the bolt on adaptor. That is seriously tempting, and a much more rounded solution than my standard wastegate with a load of washers in it [8D]
 
ORIGINAL: slim_boy_fat

What size/type of tube should i buy to do this?

Danno recommended fuel hose, so I took my Reliaboost down to the local motoring shop and bought a metre that had an internal diameter of 4mm and a thick wall, as well as a couple of hose clamps
 
ORIGINAL: Diver944

Danno recommended fuel hose, so I took my Reliaboost down to the local motoring shop and bought a metre that had an internal diameter of 4mm and a thick wall, as well as a couple of hose clamps

Cheers..
 
OK you lot, it's very late and I work much too hard so for the moment you'll have to wait for a full explanation of where a TRUE 72 bhp came from with a MAP sensor kit that I have co-developed with a collegue for BMW race cars. It just happens that the BMW has a very similar ECU to the 944 and suggested that we try one on Andrew's 944. I had no idea that it would prove to work so well. I knew Andrew's car was in dire need of freeing up the inlet system which is why I was keen to give this a try. It is unlikely that the same benefit would be had from a car with a lesser spec, but an improvement must surely be had even on a stock motor. Whether you feel that the improvement is worth parting with your hard earned is up to you (or, more often, the wife if you're owt like me!!)

Please do not cast your doubts or dispersions upon my work without first reading the coming explanation and, if you do not understand any of it, ask until you know and understand the detail. The dyno does not lie, at least the ones I choose to use don't!

In a later post I will give some explanation of how and why it proved to work so well. There are compounded resons too long winded to go into at gone two in the morning I'm afraid.....
 
Excellent [:D][:D][:D]

Get up Wayne and start posting (oh you can have breakfast first)

Don't worry about us casting aspersions, you have a very good name in the 944 world, mainly due to Andrew and the proven work you have done on other 944's on the Titanic list.

We do know that Andrews 422 bhp [:eek:] comes from the many, many things bolted onto his car, but I personally would be looking for increased throttle response and reduction in lag from a MAP and remap onto a standardish 2.5 Turbo
 
And Andrew certainly seems very pleased

"It is indescribably fast, never have I travelled in such a fast and accelerative car"

and

"I have blown many a GT3 away at track days with the car as it was then (310bhp, 330lbft torque). I now have a better power to weight ratio than the current 911 GT2"

Tony

[:)][:)][:)]
 
And Andrew certainly seems very pleased

At 400+ bhp, I'm not surprised. I should think all of us would be.

A MAP kit has got to be the next upgrade as the improved throttle response must provide a greater impression of increased power than the figures would suggest.
 
ORIGINAL: John Sims

I have been discussing this issue with Rick, who has gone the MAF route (or at least will when he gets the bits) in prefferance to MAP. Apparently, he had a few chummies who totaled Cossies in the past trying out new kit and is consequently sticking with tried yank practice. If, as I'm assuming above, Andrew's kit is just a Danno import then we shouldn't end up as Beta testers and this shouldn't be an issue.

Nearly, john, but not quite. [:(][:(]

I'm not going MAF at all, just MAP (and it's not yank practice either). The main advatages to MAP upgrade include being able to free up the inlet tract (atmosphere to turbo) and fast response time.

The 951 AFM is a very crude, slow and restrictive device. At one extreme, it severely hampers throttle response by the restriction to change of air flow rate by means of the spring loaded barn door. At the other, it severely limits mass air flow at high RPM by it's (necessarily) small orifice. Getting rid of the afm leads to much better throttle response (therefore driveability) and allows much better air flow.

Perhaps one of the best descriptions can be found on Danno's site. Here

With this restriction gone, a larger turbo, better intercooler and other changes to the inlet tracts such as air filter, smoother air path up to the throttle body etc the amount of airflow available to the engine increases significantly. An efficient cold air inlet and intercooler (and larger turbo compressor) also allow much greater density of that (increased) air volume. Air flow = power (so to speak).

I've already got a free flowing (non restricted) 3" straight through exhaust and a reasonable sized (#8) hotside on the turbo to get the gasses out.

To get the gasses in, I've got a Lindsey Racing stage II Intercooler. Currently the biggest restriction on my engine is the AFM. Once this is gone, I can change to a K27/8 or maybe T04E. I'm looking for a spare 8v head and inlet manifold at the moment to modify up and blend the ports etc.

It makes sense to me to change the head / manifold / turbo in one session, and clean up a whole lot of pipework under the inlet manifold at the same time. Probably with aeroquip. Possibly also look to add a catch tank to catch any oil displacement from blow-by when the boost goes up.

The DME is not the brightest of engine management systems and does need a lot of signal massage to cope with a MAP sensor. Although the link does a very good job at dealing with the fuelling translation, I think I'll probably end up with a standalone management system at some time in the future to allow more flexible mapping.

When I first got my 951 and decided it needed some serious tuning attention, and saw how the management system / AFM was set up, one of my first thoughts was to ditch the standard AFM and adapt a map sensor and signal massager as a first stage of tuning ! Time passed and the Americans started bringing out kits to do that 'off the shelf', rather than me bothering to do the fabrication of the revised intake etc. I've been waiting since mid last year for Danno's bits to arrive !

It's true that no 'one size fits all' option exists when it comes to mapping a car. No matter how many 'hardware' modifications you make to the engine, ultimately it's in the hands of the man who does the final mapping to bring it all together. This holds true both for getting the required power / torque charicteristics, and building in the safeguard limits such as rev / boost / retard to keep it all in check.

While Danno's maps are reckoned to be exceptionally good, once you move outside the parameters that the mapping is based on (change induction / exhaust / cam etc) then those maps can only be relied on as a start point. With the GURU map kit, I can map the fuelling from in the car is moving. I already have electronic boost control of a dual port wastegate. Currently ignition mapping is a 'chips out / emulate / remap / burn / chips back in) process which is restrictive if you constantly want to change your engines specification.

I suppose it all depends on how far you want to go, how much you want (can) to tune yourself and how much time, money and effort that you want to spend.

A known, tried and tested solution such as Danno / Guru is never really going to get you in to trouble. His matched kits are complete packages working as a matched set of components. Being able to buy them through Andrew Sweetingham makes it easier for us in the UK, and provides the necessary support if you need it.

To go up to the wilder state of tune such as Andrews race car that's using (relatively new to 951 but been around for years and expertly refined in cars such as Cosworths) MAP technology, needs the backing of technical tuners with a proven track record, such as Wayne, to make sure that the necessary safeguards are programmed in.

For my part, I enjoy the development cycle, in this case turning my 250 BHP start point in to something that I enjoy driving and has much more performance on tap. The only problem is, once you start on one of these trips, it never ends !

Development starts on the rolling dyno and ultimately gets tweaked on the open (private ?) roads where the affects of airflow are different to a static dyno.

There is always something that you are refining (or ripping up and replacing) in persuit of the unattainable - perfection. It's a bit like those who prefer to keep their cars ULTRA standard and compete in Concourse events - they always find another screw head to align or a new orifice to get at with a q-tip (LMFARO).

At the end of the day, you pays your money and takes your choice !

(I'll go away for another couple of months again now LOL)

Edited - just to tidy up the boxes [;)] Paul
 

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