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5th Gear - 200mph challenge

Top speed just needs power, the torque is not especially important.
You need to gear the car so that at peak power (say 6000 rpm) you are doing around 200mph.

I reckon you need 450-500bhp.

Power is how much work the engine will do, and is force x distance in a particular amount of time. In other words it is proportional to torque x revs.

If you have a flat torque output from the engine, then the graph of power against revs goes up at 45 degrees.
This is the ideal, and variable lift and timing on the cams, plus variable inlet tracts help to achieve this (hence the reason Porsche use them).
The issue you have is that at some point in the rev range, the torque starts to drop off. As it falls away your power stops increasing until eventually you actually generate less power as the revs rise.
If you can keep the torque up, then the more revs you have, the more power you have, which is why Ruf, Gemballa, 9ff, can raise the rev limit on your TT. But if you look at the peak torque, it only goes up by about 10%, they just manage to achieve it higher up the rev range, which is often at the expense of torque lower down.

For the 944T, you could raise the rev limit, but it may do you no good.
You will need to make sure you can move the torque peak further up the rev range.
You will need more valve lift (i.e. wilder cams), which may require stronger valve springs to close them again. It may now run a bit more lumpily at tickover.

It would be easier to just get more torque lower down and change the gearing.
You need to increase the boost and increase the fuelling.
You will need to watch the cooling, since you are going to generating a lot more heat than the cooling in the block was designed for.
You may also need to consider how to keep the pistons cool (since they may not be splashed with enough oil).

Getting to 200 is probably best done on a long straight 3 miles or more (try Fairford), or a large circular track, such as Nardo. You don't want much of a corner, since it creates drag and heats the tyres.
If you are going to run for some time, then things are going to get warm.
Of the 500bhp, probably more than 100 is being lost in the transmission.
This will make the gearbox and diff hot. This is why the gearbox has an oil cooler on TT and GT2/3, plus you have individual oil sprays on the gears in the GT2.

You really should lower the car, plus fit a larger air dam, to reduce airflow under the car.
At 150 you need to pay some attention to the aerodynamics, at 170/180 it is pretty important, but at 200 it is pretty serious.
(I read somewhere that an early 911 with no rear spoiler, would be getting about a third of a ton of lift at 150 - I will check. Hence the tea tray.)
This will increase drag, but will stop you losing control.
The door mirrors should come off too (or at least be smaller).

Saving weight by stripping the interior, will make no difference to the top speed, just how fast you get there.

Of course another way you can get to 200 without modifying the car, is to follow another car very close (a few feet away) and slip stream it.
You should be able to do 200 with 250 bhp then.
But you will need to be careful not to rear end them if they lift or brake.
 
Interesting.[FONT=verdana,geneva"] [FONT=verdana,geneva"]With a bigger turbo that can blow much harder than the original to well past red line, bigger injectors etc. the torque peak moves up the rev range and stays high for longer. 944T has a rudimentary transmission oil cooler already. There is a lot more cooling air than the car expects, plus a few extra holes in the front, no air-con condenser and the water does not cool the turbo any more. Probably worth getting the bigger oil cooler I had planned though... Front splitter, rear wing, lowered - check. Mirrors and wipers can come off. I'm definitely up for seeing how fast it will go but I'm thinking into the 180's will be as good as I can realistically hope for.[FONT=verdana,geneva"] [FONT=verdana,geneva"]In terms of 911's without wings I can confirm it feels like the front wheels are lifting off the road aover about 130.[FONT=verdana,geneva"]
 
They're a real pain in the backside. God only knows what they use for glue on those things.

The trick is only to peel a very small amount of the tape off to expose the minimum amount of sticky stuff. That way there is only a very small piece of glue to remove from the screen.

You'll know that for next year [:D]
 
I had my 1986 911 cabriolet up to 160 on the speedo (I love Germany..) and it felt absolutely solid

No rear wing, but with lip spoiler (ie the non recommended way to go)

I did read some tests on the 964 when it first came out where they disabled the lifting rear spoiler, and apparently you started to feel the difference over 120

Anyone have access to a wind tunnel for Fens machine :)
 
ORIGINAL: Fen
Front splitter, rear wing, lowered - check. Mirrors and wipers can come off.

It would be a good idea to make sure the tailgate is well and truly secured shut and maybe remove the lifting struts. I would imagine the suction on the tailgate would be pretty extreme.

At a previous Bruntingthorpe day, a TVR Cerbera had his rear screen sucked off, flung 100ft into the air where it disentegrated into a million pieces rather like the Death Star in Star Wars [:eek:]
 
I know I did (on indicated) 280kph (174mph) on my first day of ownership in Germany, and IIRC, i wasn't quite at the redline. That was back when I only had "250hp", and a leaking turbo! So I reckon Fen's 180mph must be possible, especially if he doesn't un out of runway!
 
ORIGINAL: Stuart Martin
Of course another way you can get to 200 without modifying the car, is to follow another car very close (a few feet away) and slip stream it.

They'll need to get to 200mph, of course ... somewhat of a chicken and egg situation?
 
ORIGINAL: Diver944

ORIGINAL: Fen
Front splitter, rear wing, lowered - check. Mirrors and wipers can come off.

It would be a good idea to make sure the tailgate is well and truly secured shut and maybe remove the lifting struts. I would imagine the suction on the tailgate would be pretty extreme.

At a previous Bruntingthorpe day, a TVR Cerbera had his rear screen sucked off, flung 100ft into the air where it disentegrated into a million pieces rather like the Death Star in Star Wars [:eek:]
[FONT=verdana,geneva"] [FONT=verdana,geneva"]Wouldn't that have been increased cabin pressure pushing it out? In any case my wing is attached to the tailgate so it would keep it shut.[FONT=verdana,geneva"]
 
On the basis that we don't have the luxury of rude amounts of HP like the Sierra on 5th gear then in our case the aerodynamics will play a much more important part. The problem with rear wings is that often they are designed for asthetics rather than function and therefore even though they might create some useful downforce at high speeds it will also be generating excessive drag which is going to scupper your 200mph attempt. I'm not sure if the shape of the 944 is a nett lift or nett downforce shape but I would guess that your best bet would be to remove spoilers altogether to get as clean a shape as possible and achieve downforce by other more efficient means such as fitting some sort of undertray to try to generate some downforce via ground effect. Again the trick is to not generate too much downforce, and hence excessive drag, but to generate enough to you give you positive downforce whilst generating as little drag as possible.

Obviously, as we've seen on 5th gear, a Sierra Sapphire with standard spoilers doesn't take off at 206mph and i'm sure it's more to do with the shape of the car and not due to the piddly little boot spoiler. Even if the Sierra's boot spoiler was an effecient aerodynamic device the airflow onto it will be totally ruined by the flow seperation and resulting trubulence as the airflow drops off the roof and tumbles down the rear window rendering the boot spoiler useless.
 
Oh and I believe the 944T had some underfloor work (the undertrays, the plastic under the footwells, the sill extensions and the rear under spoiler) such that it does develop some downforce but I forget the figure. As an aside it is nowhere near as impressive as the underfloor work on a F360 - shame the italians then chose to finish it off by fitting it with £2 worth of fixings from B and Q
Tony
 
I forgot about that thread, Tony.[FONT=verdana,geneva"] [FONT=verdana,geneva"]That seems to suggest no aerodynamic nasties (unless the last 5.6mph will make a BIG difference) as I have effectively the same spoiler and splitter as Konstantin. However the 3.0 turbo engine not getting it there suggests I'd get nowhere near it.[FONT=verdana,geneva"] [FONT=verdana,geneva"]Anyway, Paul, you're very quiet in this, what about the 3.2 beastie [;)][FONT=verdana,geneva"]
 
Aerodynamic drag is obviously the main component at this speed. Aerodynamic drag varies with the cube of speed.

Since I don't have any other numbers in my head at the moment, I'll use the S2 as my "baseline" (making various assumptions about it being perfectly geared for it's top speed etc etc).

So we'll go with 211bhp pushing a 944 to 149mph.

Rough calculations therefore:-
200mph is 1.34x the current top speed of the car.
Power requirement is therefore (1.34 cubed) x current power
= 2.42 x 211bhp
= 510bhp

It may come out slightly differently if you use the std turbo as a baseline etc etc, but it'll be "in the ballpark".

I can't remember how much power Fen has, but using the above calc 420bhp (with suitable gearing) would allow 187.5mph.

edit: don't have time to read the rennlist link at the mo, so apologies if this is in there somewhere [&:]
 
Mik, one minor error: Drag increases at the square of speed, not the cube. Therefore:-

1.79 x 211bhp
= 379 bhp
 
One of the Titanic regulars has just had his car re-tested at Weltmeister and hit 342 bhp at 5800rpm, but it only dropped a couple of bhp all the way to 6500rpm

http://www.titanic.co.uk/cgi-bin/galleryimage.py?intReqPict=4058&intReqGall=2

On 255/40/17 tyres then this car could reach 179.46 mph, but he would need to get to 7300rpm to hit 200mph

On 245/55/17 tyres, then at 6500rpm he would be doing 190mph and only needs to get to 6800rpm to hit the double ton. I think at that rev range though the power would have dropped closer to 300bhp and the car could not get there.

The really impressive thing for me is this car is still a stock 2.5 litre and is still using the barn door AFM
 
ORIGINAL: Stuart Martin

Top speed just needs power, the torque is not especially important.

Sorry thats mince, engine produce torque, power is a way of describing torque per unit time. What you need is enough thrust to turn the wheels at a given speed, this can either be achieved with high gearing (low multiplication) but alot of torque. Or low gearing (high multiplication) and less torque. Either way the power required would be the same!!!








 

ORIGINAL: sawood12

Mik, one minor error: Drag increases at the square of speed, not the cube.  Therefore:-

1.79 x 211bhp
= 379 bhp

Sorry - I meant to say power requirement varies with the cube of speed. You're correcu in that drag varies with the square (= 0.5 x CdA x air density x speed squared)

but power requirement is proportional to both drag and speed (can't remember that equation off the top of my head [:mad:] ) so power requirement does indeed increase with the cube of velocity. [8D]
 
"Sorry thats mince, engine produce torque, power is a way of describing torque per unit time. What you need is enough thrust to turn the wheels at a given speed, this can either be achieved with high gearing (low multiplication) but alot of torque. Or low gearing (high multiplication) and less torque. Either way the power required would be the same!!! "

Sorry, of course the power required is the same.
The point I was trying to make, is to acheive a certain top speed, you need a certain power output. Only the power is important.
Whether this is obtained by having a very high reving engine with little torque and short stroke (e.g. F1 engine) or with a low revving engine with a lot of torque and a longer stroke (e.g. a diesel truck engine), doesn't matter.
What you need to do is find a way to get that power out of the given engine.
 

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