718 Cayman GT4 is here – at long last.!
- Thread starter Motorhead
- Start date
Brian_Innes
Member
ralphmusic said:
Ralph,
Thanks for posting another interesting video of the 982 GT4 at Knockhill.
Unfortunate that the driver was running so close to the silver GT4 in front. Running in close convoy with another car always compromises lap times. Even so, the times are consistently in the 58.7 bracket which is a very respectable time for Knockhill. Looking at the terminal speeds along the straights, the GT4 peaked at 121mph under the Beatson's bridge, and 117mph approaching the hairpin. Both very respectable speeds.
On the corner lines, it's best not to take too much kerb at Butcher's, that's the right kink just before the chicane. It unbalances the car as you approach the uphill Arnold Clark chicane. I've seen many Cup 911's spin here by doing just that. The kerbs at Knockhill are there to be used, but don't be too greedy on some of them. That's where local knowledge can gain a few tenths over the newbies early in the day, until they twig which kerbs to be economical with, or have frightened themselves with a spin.
Andrew Frankel's GT4 review is very fair. Particularly in his acknowledgement about the comparative accelerative performance of the 718 GTS PDK. As a chassis man, I'm not one to dwell too much on numbers. The joy of a good handling chassis trumps the stopwatch times from 0-100mph every time. The 982 GTS has taken chassis development to an even higher level than its predecessor. Odd that Autocar made a typo with the price of the GT4 at £130k. Other than that a good review.
Brian
Brian,
The price error and the fact that Frankel's stating an 80kg weight increase rather than the now well-established like-for-like increase nearer 30kg indicates that although Autocar are very late with their review, they still haven't done their homework properly. Very sloppy editing.
By the way I think you'll find that the lead-out car is a GT3 rather than a GT4 - although it gets away on the straights, the better chassis balance of the GT4 hauls it in on the twisty bits..!
As a nod to emissions, note that the stop-start is activated just as the driver waits to exit the pit lane. [
]
Jeff
The price error and the fact that Frankel's stating an 80kg weight increase rather than the now well-established like-for-like increase nearer 30kg indicates that although Autocar are very late with their review, they still haven't done their homework properly. Very sloppy editing.
By the way I think you'll find that the lead-out car is a GT3 rather than a GT4 - although it gets away on the straights, the better chassis balance of the GT4 hauls it in on the twisty bits..!
As a nod to emissions, note that the stop-start is activated just as the driver waits to exit the pit lane. [
]Jeff
Brian_Innes
Member
Jeff,
You are quite correct. I was so engrossed on the speedometer readings and cornering lines, I didn't really take much notice of the car in front. Just shows you how similar the new GT4 is to the 911 profile at a casual glance. Now that you have mentioned it, the silver car is early on the brakes on all the corners. From past experience, with my previous 718 Cayman S PDK, I often caught up 911 GT3's on the brakes at Knockhill, especially in Sector 1's twisty and dippy stuff.
Interesting to note that the driver in the GT4 video used 2nd gear for turn 3, where Walter Röhrl stayed in 3rd. Note the subsequent hasty upshift to 3rd at Butcher's just prior to the chicane. Going by the respective near identical lap times, it's debatable which gear is faster. For my own interest, I shall also try both 2nd and 3rd at turn 3 in my 718 GTS PDK. Perhaps the greater torque of the GTS will suit 3rd gear at turn 3 perfectly well.
Brian
You are quite correct. I was so engrossed on the speedometer readings and cornering lines, I didn't really take much notice of the car in front. Just shows you how similar the new GT4 is to the 911 profile at a casual glance. Now that you have mentioned it, the silver car is early on the brakes on all the corners. From past experience, with my previous 718 Cayman S PDK, I often caught up 911 GT3's on the brakes at Knockhill, especially in Sector 1's twisty and dippy stuff.
Interesting to note that the driver in the GT4 video used 2nd gear for turn 3, where Walter Röhrl stayed in 3rd. Note the subsequent hasty upshift to 3rd at Butcher's just prior to the chicane. Going by the respective near identical lap times, it's debatable which gear is faster. For my own interest, I shall also try both 2nd and 3rd at turn 3 in my 718 GTS PDK. Perhaps the greater torque of the GTS will suit 3rd gear at turn 3 perfectly well.
Brian
Brian,
I'm sure that Walter's much more familiar with the new GT4's characteristics than Henry C, so I'd bet on 3rd being the better gear especially since it means one less time-consuming manual gearchange - although with the PDK's super-fast shifting it might be a different matter.
Although I've not driven there, Knockhill looks to me to be a torque rather than power circuit which should suit your GTS which has a very wide, high-torque range suitable for accelerating rapidly out of the bends. The 982 GT4's certainly not lacking in torque either, having an identical maximum value to the manual GTS but over a much reduced rev range: 5,000-6,800rpm compared with 2,100-5,500rpm for the GTS.
Jeff
I'm sure that Walter's much more familiar with the new GT4's characteristics than Henry C, so I'd bet on 3rd being the better gear especially since it means one less time-consuming manual gearchange - although with the PDK's super-fast shifting it might be a different matter.
Although I've not driven there, Knockhill looks to me to be a torque rather than power circuit which should suit your GTS which has a very wide, high-torque range suitable for accelerating rapidly out of the bends. The 982 GT4's certainly not lacking in torque either, having an identical maximum value to the manual GTS but over a much reduced rev range: 5,000-6,800rpm compared with 2,100-5,500rpm for the GTS.
Jeff
A Swedish journalist this time, more interesting from 3:45 when Walter drives him and comments on car's characteristics. 56.8 WR quickest time.
[tube]https://youtu.be/Z4sefKCEsd0[/tube]
[tube]https://youtu.be/Z4sefKCEsd0[/tube]
Brian_Innes
Member
Ralph,
As a Knockhill regular, that is a really interesting video. The subtitles were also much appreciated.
Walter Röhrl was clearly going for it. More so than on his previous clip. I particularly liked the flash of opposite lock on exiting the chicane on his timed lap. That shows he was pushing the grip limit when the car goes light at that point. Knowing the circuit was an advantage for me with the in-car cabin view. I could relate to his "racing face" expression at all the points on the track where you need to concentrate.
The 982 GT4 chassis is clearly ideally suited to the undulations, kerbs, and cambers of Knockhill. His best reported lap of 56.8 is extraordinarily good. I suspect that was when he was on his own in the car. The timed lap on the video at 57.8 is also a superb result with a passenger on board. For your information, the lap record at Knockhill with Carrera Cup cars, is 49.8 seconds or thereabouts. On slicks of course.
I agree with Walter's comment that at Knockhill a GT3 would probably not lap any faster than the 982 GT4. What the GT3 gained on the uphill straight, would be clawed back by the GT4 on the twisty and dippy sections. If anyone knows, Walter does. Interesting when he said he had tried different cornering lines. I've also explored a few myself, and recall the slides on some of the less successful ones.
I'll be reporting back on my own Knockhill experiences with the 718 GTS PDK on my own thread in due course. Meantime this has been a fascinating series of video clips on the 982 GT4 which is clearly suited to tracks where handling excels rather than outright power. Great stuff.
Brian
As a Knockhill regular, that is a really interesting video. The subtitles were also much appreciated.
Walter Röhrl was clearly going for it. More so than on his previous clip. I particularly liked the flash of opposite lock on exiting the chicane on his timed lap. That shows he was pushing the grip limit when the car goes light at that point. Knowing the circuit was an advantage for me with the in-car cabin view. I could relate to his "racing face" expression at all the points on the track where you need to concentrate.
The 982 GT4 chassis is clearly ideally suited to the undulations, kerbs, and cambers of Knockhill. His best reported lap of 56.8 is extraordinarily good. I suspect that was when he was on his own in the car. The timed lap on the video at 57.8 is also a superb result with a passenger on board. For your information, the lap record at Knockhill with Carrera Cup cars, is 49.8 seconds or thereabouts. On slicks of course.
I agree with Walter's comment that at Knockhill a GT3 would probably not lap any faster than the 982 GT4. What the GT3 gained on the uphill straight, would be clawed back by the GT4 on the twisty and dippy sections. If anyone knows, Walter does. Interesting when he said he had tried different cornering lines. I've also explored a few myself, and recall the slides on some of the less successful ones.
I'll be reporting back on my own Knockhill experiences with the 718 GTS PDK on my own thread in due course. Meantime this has been a fascinating series of video clips on the 982 GT4 which is clearly suited to tracks where handling excels rather than outright power. Great stuff.
Brian
Brian_Innes
Member
An interesting thing would have been the G-Force readings on Walter's laps in the GT4. With his Cup 2's warmed up and Walter going for it, I would have been very keen to see these figures.
The magazine hacks don't know the questions to ask. I would wager all of the motorsport posters on this forum would have leaned across after the demo laps and asked Walter to call up the G-Force log.
David, you are quite correct. There are two corners where torque counts for seconds of time at Knockhill. Turn 3, and Turn 7 exiting the hairpin. The GT4 with lower ratios in 2nd and 3rd, as you get with the PDK gearbox, would suit the car better. When I'm at Knockhill in a couple of weeks I'll try both 2nd and 3rd gears at Turn 3 in my 718 GTS PDK. There may be little to choose between them on this car I'm thinking.
Brian
The magazine hacks don't know the questions to ask. I would wager all of the motorsport posters on this forum would have leaned across after the demo laps and asked Walter to call up the G-Force log.
David, you are quite correct. There are two corners where torque counts for seconds of time at Knockhill. Turn 3, and Turn 7 exiting the hairpin. The GT4 with lower ratios in 2nd and 3rd, as you get with the PDK gearbox, would suit the car better. When I'm at Knockhill in a couple of weeks I'll try both 2nd and 3rd gears at Turn 3 in my 718 GTS PDK. There may be little to choose between them on this car I'm thinking.
Brian
And gearing suitability is track dependent, I've seen GT4s on 2:22 at Silverstone. Goodwood would also be a good track being a momentum circuit with just the chicane exit needing an easier 2nd gear although saying that 2nd or 3rd with PDK is very similar with a 3.8L engine.
Here's the second part of Henry C's review, this time driving the Spyder on those excellent Highland roads but it gives a good indication of what to expect of the tin-top GT4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHb3-aNuZzQ&feature=youtu.be
As he says, it is what it is so just accept the flaws - and there's nothing else like it available at the price. There's no doubt that in many respects it's a superior car to its predecessor (engine, steering, aero, etc.), the Spyder in particular, and most of the naysayers seem to be owners of 981s who are basing their opinions on press reviews. Best to wait until the cars are assessed properly on extended UK tests for a reliable verdict.
Jeff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHb3-aNuZzQ&feature=youtu.be
As he says, it is what it is so just accept the flaws - and there's nothing else like it available at the price. There's no doubt that in many respects it's a superior car to its predecessor (engine, steering, aero, etc.), the Spyder in particular, and most of the naysayers seem to be owners of 981s who are basing their opinions on press reviews. Best to wait until the cars are assessed properly on extended UK tests for a reliable verdict.
Jeff
MrDemon said:
All very much down to personal preferences D - not everyone has your very 'focused' view on GT car ownership. Despite its flaws, a brand-new £85k mid-engined (rather than rear-engined) car with your own spec and a 3-year factory warranty has its attractions.
Anyway, back on the overdone topic of GT4 gearing, some wag on Rennlist has calculated these (unsubstantiated) top speeds based upon gear ratios, final drive, redline and rear tyre diameter:
Manual GT4
1 50mph
2 85mph
3 116mph
PDK 718 Cayman
1 45mph
2 77mph
3 109mph
However, the GT4 redlines at 8,000rpm whereas the F-4T engine redlines at 7,500rpm at which the GT4 will be pulling 80mph, so there’s only 3mph in it. Anyone hoping for a significant difference between a manual and PDK 982 GT4 looks as though they'll be out of luck, assuming the current 718 PDK transmission is used.
Confusingly, if you compare Porsche's own transmission diagrams for the 718 F4-T for the 7-speed PDK and 6-speed manual 'boxes in the attached .pdf, the respective speeds at 7,500rpm in 2nd gear are about 71mph and 74mph (but still a delta 3mph).
Jeff
Just quoting my own post in this thread from 24/7/19 - 981 GT4s on Porsche Approved used cars is now down to 5 today. Yes I know that there are other GT4s out there in other specialist used car dealers - but using the Porsche Approved data as a benchmark, it's what i said above. I believe that open market forces - ie the effects of supply and demand - will keep 981 GT4 prices fairly healthyBilko1 said:Number of 981 GT4 on Porsche Approved cars has gone from 19 to 9 in the last week. Cheapest is £70k for a 30,000 mile 2015. Nearly all of those waiting for a 982 GT4 won't get one, will see the light, and if they really want a GT4 realise that there is not enough difference to make it worth the wait or hassle or price for a new one (it will be £85k-£90k for a mediumish spec 982 GT4) and pile into a used one. The prices will hold relatively well for that reason alone. Or they'll get bored and go elsewhere. As has been mentioned elsewhere, it seems that there are a lot of 981 GT4 owners who are perfectly happy where they are. Then again, I'm bound to say that.....Motorhead said:
Nothing out of the ordinary there Chris ... it's still summer and the weather's (mostly!) good, so demand is still strong for a car that's in limited supply with its replacement arriving in dribs and drabs and in very limited numbers from September/October at the earliest.
Despite what's been said I can't see Porsche allowing the market to be flooded by the new car, although the production run is likely to last until 2022 - or 2023 maybe - so there'll most likely be more 982s around. Until there's a reasonable supply of 982 GT4s on the market it's doubful there'll be a significant softening of 981 GT4 prices.
Jeff
Despite what's been said I can't see Porsche allowing the market to be flooded by the new car, although the production run is likely to last until 2022 - or 2023 maybe - so there'll most likely be more 982s around. Until there's a reasonable supply of 982 GT4s on the market it's doubful there'll be a significant softening of 981 GT4 prices.
Jeff
Brian_Innes
Member
Jeff,
With reference to your interesting comments and attachment on the respective gear ratios between the manual and PDK gearboxes.
In my experience with swapping gear ratios between hill climbs in my racing Imp Stiletto, the impact on acceleration was always greater than the gear graphs would suggest. In other words, although there may only be an apparent negligible difference in ratio or mph at maximum revs, the actual effect on performance was far greater in practical terms.
When the 982 GT4 comes with the PDK option, the effect on performance will be significant. Just as it is with the 718 Cayman GTS PDK compared to the manual.
Brian
With reference to your interesting comments and attachment on the respective gear ratios between the manual and PDK gearboxes.
In my experience with swapping gear ratios between hill climbs in my racing Imp Stiletto, the impact on acceleration was always greater than the gear graphs would suggest. In other words, although there may only be an apparent negligible difference in ratio or mph at maximum revs, the actual effect on performance was far greater in practical terms.
When the 982 GT4 comes with the PDK option, the effect on performance will be significant. Just as it is with the 718 Cayman GTS PDK compared to the manual.
Brian
I couldn't agree more Brian - raw figures don't always translate to practical improvements, especially when taking into account the much snappier gear-shifting of the PDK 'box. I was just trying to throw in some objectivity on the subject and to show that on paper there doesn't appear to be a significant difference between the manual and PDK gearing.
Unfortunately I think we're going to have to wait quite a while before we see a PDK-equipped 982 GT4 to get the definitive answer as to whether or not it's a better match with the new engine.
Jeff
Unfortunately I think we're going to have to wait quite a while before we see a PDK-equipped 982 GT4 to get the definitive answer as to whether or not it's a better match with the new engine.
Jeff
I seem to recall that Porsche were threatening to demand that purchasers of new cars signed-up to an agreement for a potential 10% price-hike in the event of a no-deal Brexit, but I'm not aware that this has yet happened even though it's likely that many GT4s and Spyders will arrive on these shores after 31st October this year.
My take on it is that in the event of a no-deal (and without a specific agreement on cars imported from the EU), WTO rules mean that a 10% import duty will be imposed on all imported cars - RoW and EU. Assuming this tax is levied on the base price (before VAT @ 20%), this means that the current retail price (including equipment?) will increase by 5.6% inclusive of VAT, although Porsche can choose to whether or not to impose this levy in whole or part. As usual the hard-pressed motorist is facing the double-whammy of a tax on a tax..!
Jeff
My take on it is that in the event of a no-deal (and without a specific agreement on cars imported from the EU), WTO rules mean that a 10% import duty will be imposed on all imported cars - RoW and EU. Assuming this tax is levied on the base price (before VAT @ 20%), this means that the current retail price (including equipment?) will increase by 5.6% inclusive of VAT, although Porsche can choose to whether or not to impose this levy in whole or part. As usual the hard-pressed motorist is facing the double-whammy of a tax on a tax..!
Jeff
Jeff,
Import duty is levied on landed cost, so the question is does Porsche GB make a profit on sales of new cars? Import VAT will be due but that is recoverable input tax.
Ralph
Import duty is levied on landed cost, so the question is does Porsche GB make a profit on sales of new cars? Import VAT will be due but that is recoverable input tax.
Ralph
Ralph,
I've no idea what profit Porsche GB makes but according to Bloomberg the parent company made an operating profit of more than $17k per car back in 2016:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-20/the-porsche-premium-revs-up-to-17-250
Plenty of wiggle room there to help the under-pressure UK motorist should they choose to in an important market for Porsche.
Jeff
I've no idea what profit Porsche GB makes but according to Bloomberg the parent company made an operating profit of more than $17k per car back in 2016:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-20/the-porsche-premium-revs-up-to-17-250
Plenty of wiggle room there to help the under-pressure UK motorist should they choose to in an important market for Porsche.
Jeff
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