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944/968 front ARB reinforcement brackets

There is a large amount of irony in you finding comments unwelcome, and I was never uncertain about your general rude attitude. ??

I had some of these brackets fitted on my old car, was fine in the dry or when in a high grip situation but understeered badly in the wet and was poor on track.

If I'm ever kept awake at night by your posts it is usually by laughing at them - not by worrying about them.
 
Eldavo said:
There is a large amount of irony in you finding comments unwelcome, and I was never uncertain about your general rude attitude. ??
I had some of these brackets fitted on my old car, was fine in the dry or when in a high grip situation but understeered badly in the wet and was poor on track.
If I'm ever kept awake at night by your posts it is usually by laughing at them - not by worrying about them.



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R
 
/moderator hat on :

Please let's keep all discussions free of any rancour. This forum works brilliantly as usually everyone shows one another respect even when there is a "divergence" of opinions. [;)]

/moderator hat off.


 
u63af said:
Ed
geo was all done, I had a fried who races set it up and I think he maybe did something with the caster so that it turned in better, I told him that they had a tendency to understeer so maybe he changed it too much


probably his fault then... although maybe rear toe..? ( I had the opposite with my Boxster - first track day with it at a wet silverstone, it really wouldn't turn in & the slightest throttle sent it understeering badly. Turned out one of the rear wheels was badly out of alignment.) It was great once sorted.
 
Hi Guys

In the interest of harmony wouldn't it be good if, at one of our meets, Roger was to pop along so we can meet him, kick tyres so to speak? Some of us have been on the 944 scene for a very long time and in some cases know each other pretty well from various meets and have become friends. I'm sure that we have differences at times but the car bonds us especially when all together at some gathering, text and it's meaning/context can be misunderstood at times. I say this as someone who has also been at odds with Roger in the past, I just think it's time that we tried to get along and a meeting in person could be the answer...just thinking aloud guys...

regards

Pete
 
edh said:
Agreed Pete - we can have a "lightweights" corner at Rutland... [:)]



haha.. hey I count in the 'Turbo' category.....after all, the 86 is the lightest of all turbo's....:)
 
Eldavo said:
Roger - you've remarked before that being here for a long period of time doesn't (in your eyes) mean that you are always right and that you can post without impunity. I'd counter that by saying that you have put several noses out of joint by joining as a new member and then spamming the forum with rants and quotes (and requotes) calling out anyone who doesn't agree with you. If you'd been on here longer then you would realise that TTM is both a long-standing and knowledgeable member as well as not having English as a first language.

Being around a community such as this for some time will give you an insight into people's personalities and knowledge. I know that a lot of your posts mean well but if I have to read another post about how your car is the best ever due to XXX KG weight loss and "only" needing XXX springs and skinny tyres for whatever hyperbole you feel like of the day then my eyes will start to bleed.

I'm genuinely unsure as to whether you are well intentioned but often misguided, a massive online troll or just a belligerent old goat. Deep down I believe that you have a lot to offer the 944 community and you do appear very generous in offers to assist others but show some temerity and self awareness please.
The claims of lightweight do amuse me when I think about some of the cars from the past that were really lightweight - Anyone got any pics of Simon's (the essential styling track rat) car? Peter Empson was/is fairly dedicated to reducing weight as well, But Simon must take the crown - An interior that consisted of mostly holes with instruments clipped to the steering column!
Tony
 
944Turbo said:
The claims of lightweight do amuse me when I think about some of the cars from the past that were really lightweight -
Tony



So this can only be a Personal crack at me also TONY ?, (in regard to my 2.7 924)

I would like to point out than my car is a fully functioning ROAD car with full carpet interior, 2 seats & a Heater etc..Anyone can do a Fully stripped out track car that's not difficult at all.

If anyone else also has a 2.5 / 2.7 / 3.0 924 / 944 / 968 which only weighs 1010kg (With Fuel) and is a daily ROAD car then they have also achieved a considerable reduction from the original kerb weight which in my case was 1260kg.

"Claims of Lightweight" do amuse you? , Lots of Tosh and rudeness from members don't amuse me at all.

R
 
Suffolk944 said:
/moderator hat on :

Please let's keep all discussions free of any rancour. This forum works brilliantly as usually everyone shows one another respect even when there is a "divergence" of opinions. [;)]

/moderator hat off.


Ban the troll and normal service will be resumed. Please?
 
Oh I dunno - these 'spats' are quite amusing when watched from afar. Banning certain members would reduce the fun quotient quite significantly. [;)]
 
Well Simon's was also a road car, he was just more dedicated to the lightweight ethos, in that he drove it on the road without carpets or a dashboard, or infact any trim other than seats and the cable tie for the instruments. I think it still had a heater, but very little else!
I think the door innards were either cut out or drilled, as were the rear speaker surrounds and anything else deemed non structural.
The pop up headlights had gone too but it had some fixed units in the bumper that were very grey in legality, I think they requred the measurement to be a bit off vertical and possibly the suspension to be raised. The wheels were the early cookie cutters, cheap lightweight and you will be pleased to hear 15"
I wonder what happened to it. It was built to go as fast as possible on track witha very limited budget, and was also used on the road regularly.
Tony
 
I think that the context of "lightweight" has gone straight over someone's head-but Roger-clearly you have a lot of experience to offer & have posted some really interesting technical stuff-perhaps you should try resisting taking the "bait" quite so quickly??
 


vitesse said:
I think that the context of "lightweight" has gone straight over someone's head-but Roger-clearly you have a lot of experience to offer & have posted some really interesting technical stuff-perhaps you should try resisting taking the "bait" quite so quickly??



Sure, so you think this was just bait then , done just to add some amusement to the thread and have a crack at someone for fun?

Eldavo I'd counter that by saying that you have put several noses out of joint by joining as a new member and then spamming the forum with rants and quotes (and requotes) calling out anyone who doesn't agree with you.

but if I have to read another post about how your car is the best ever due to weight loss and skinny tyres for whatever hyperbole you feel like of the day then my eyes will start to bleed.

I'm genuinely unsure as to whether you are well intentioned but often misguided, a massive online troll or just a belligerent old goat.


Would it be ok if I start slagging some people's cars, personality's and behaviour?

I think not.

R


 
Back on track.....Anti Roll Bar stiffening brackets

The 924 design carried over to the 944 & 968 (Vertical hung brackets) and did not change ? to my knowledge
it was originally designed for the 2.0 application with a 21mm thick bar, 14" wheels and a 1100kg ish vehicle weight

Since we all know this vehicle evolved into 2 more body shapes and had numerous suspension, brake engine interior, & wheel etc..changes
Porsche increased the diameters of the ARB's which upgraded the car's handling in combination with the increase in power & weight and the car's increased cornering and top speed capability.

Every time the ARB diameter was increased this added more torsional stiffness across the axle and effectively the ARB Spring offered
more rigidity and less compliance, exactly as it does when many people fit thicker roll bars for road and track use.

Also just the same as when fitting harder material bushings, this increases the actual spring rate (Deflection) of the bar because it deflects less as it does with the softest material (OE rubber). The poly bush manufactures quote an actual spring rate loss of 20% so Rubber could be twice this?

Sway bar stiffness increases as the fourth power of the diameter. For example, a sway bar might have a diameter of 22mm and you are considering changing it for one which is 26mm in diameter. 224 (22 x 22 x 22 x 22) give a stiffness factor of 234,256 units. The second bar’s stiffness is 264 which is 456,976. Divide one by the other and you can see that the second bar’s stiffness is almost twice (1.95 times) as high, even though it’s only 4mm thicker!

So fitting Poly bushes, a thicker bar and these brackets all 3 will produce a decrease in the amount of twisting deflection the bar had originally, which could be too much and cause the car to understeer as the inside wheel is lifting too much and the outside wheel has reached a maximum weight transfer / the camber angle changes and the tyre molecules give up and start to slide, but this can be counteracted by a stiffer rear Bar and shocks and springs.

Racers normally go for as thicker bar as they can, we know the 968 Mo30 option had a 30mm front and 3 way adjustable rear 19mm set up.

Porsche may very well of packaged and designed the ARB vertical brackets to offer some compliance, they are isolated away from the frame and the bush position holding the bar is located a reasonable distance away from the car's chassis frame, but triangulating and stiffening this is no different to fitting harder bushes and / or a stiffer ARB so I did question the facts where the info had come from (mates mates) as I wanted to know more but also from my road and race tuning career and experience I wanted to make a point that fitting such brackets would not make the car a death trap!
(as a few members did express they had no issues with them fitted) any change to the balance can be sorted that's the fun of tuning suspension systems for road and track.



R
 
Probably a bit late....

But I fitted these to my 951 along time ago with M030 (968) ARB's at both ends, handles perfectly and very predictably on the road and track - mind you I do run it all square = 225/50' 16's all round which does make a difference.

Only issue is getting the thing to start in the cold & wet - different story...
 
PAUL RUDDY said:
I don't care, they are shiny and pretty and that's what matters above everything else.....[:)]


At last.. a man speaking sense on this thread.. :ROFLMAO:
 
Just to add to my statement that I have these fitted to my car with no ill effects, I should add that I have covered a fair few miles with them too. I can't remember when they were fitted, IIRC it was some time before I did the latest mods to the car, so whatever mileage that I did before then plus the 12k+ miles since. The car has tackled anything that the road can throw at you with no issues at all, dry, wet or ice, all in a car with nearly twice it's original power. It's only fair to point out though that I don't do track days and nor do I take any risks when driving, so nothing close to the limit, well not in cornering, accelerating if a different matter....It's very difficult to resist the boost, well it is for me, even today in the wet, drizzly conditions on a mud-soaked road, I just had to feel that shove into the back of the seat as boost is hit, not full, though, only about half available or I'd find the rear quickly overtaking the front...not fun...:)

Pete
 
PAUL RUDDY said:
I don't care, they are shiny and pretty and that's what matters above everything else.....[:)]


I don't care if they are shiny and pretty, what matters above everything else is performance..... :ROFLMAO:

R
 

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